The Dailey Edge Podcast
Join hosts Trent, TJ, and Todd Dailey as they explore the intersections of technology, culture, fitness, and personal growth. Through engaging discussions and personal anecdotes, the trio dives into topics ranging from childhood gaming nostalgia and cutting-edge fitness tech to the pursuit of happiness and lifestyle choices. Whether reminiscing about epic gaming marathons, sharing tips for staying on the forefront of fitness trends, or unraveling the complexities of modern life, The Dailey Edge delivers thoughtful insights, lively debates, and relatable stories for listeners of all walks of life.
The Dailey Edge Podcast
Episode 29: Serving First: Building Culture with Christian Principles in Modern Business
Want a culture that doesn’t crack under pressure or trends? We dive deep into integrating faith and values at work without bullhorns, labels, or cringe. With candid stories across corporate and service environments, we unpack why your “why” matters most—are you signaling virtue, chasing performance, or serving people? Then we get practical: defining culture as shared vision plus the health of your people, keeping rituals fresh, and building feedback loops that make trust measurable.
We explore the tension between overt branding and quiet conviction, contrasting Chick-fil-A’s clarity and owner presence with Starbucks’ drift and the cost of unclear standards. You’ll hear how to hire for values without compromising on skills—behavioral interviews, real-world scenarios, and onboarding that reinforces what you say you believe. We also tackle the hard part: where to draw the line. Grace is vital, but tolerating behavior that violates core principles teaches the wrong lesson. Learn how to diagnose will vs skill, prune thoughtfully, and adapt systems as you scale.
This conversation stays grounded in action. Serve first. Seek to understand. Be for each other. Whether you name your source of values or not, time-tested principles—kindness, clarity, accountability—create teams people want to join and customers trust. We share frameworks, questions to ask, and examples from franchises and Fortune 100s to help you build a durable culture that earns loyalty the old-fashioned way: by showing up. If this resonates, follow the show, share with a leader who cares about people, and leave a review with the one value your team needs most.
Welcome to the Daily Edge, where we bring you the latest insights, opinions, and thought-provoking conversations to give you that competitive edge in life, business, and beyond. Let's go. Okay. Welcome back to the Daily Edge, sitting here with my brothers, TJ and Todd. I'm excited to be here today. There's been a couple of things that we've been discussing, and something kind of on my heart is how we integrate uh faith and business. Um I think one of the big challenges is, and I've I'm gonna say this, there's gonna be a lot of cynicism in this, but like the person that puts the Bible on the edge of their table is probably the guy you need to watch the most. And I think when it comes to faith, um there's your internal faith that that you have, and and a lot of that's very private, it's very personal, right? Um, what you talk about with God, uh you know, one of the toughest people for me to even pray with is my spouse, right? Because they they probably know us better than most. And and so as I try to navigate that within the workspace, one of the fears is always is like you don't want to be the guy that's like bullhorning and and talking to people and telling them what they need to do. And so I think there's always this challenge or dichotomy of how to live out your faith, um, how to communicate. Uh, so I would love to spend um today talking about that and how maybe you guys have approached that, or maybe some of the challenges in your current workspaces or previous workspaces to where, you know, how did somebody approach that? Or how do you look at that within the confines of a business? I think what's interesting about this one is I always come to why. Why is someone wanting to integrate faith at work? Like what's their why? Are they wanting to integrate faith at work so they can go tell everyone how faithful their workplace is or how how faithful their business is? Do they want to integrate faith at work because they feel like Christian principles, you know, uh are positive things that will lead to good business uh performance, good business outcomes. Why is it because they want the uh they want to grow the kingdom per se? They want to evangelize people at work. I think to me, that's where the question starts because it that context is really important to evaluating, you know, from there how to go about doing it or if someone's going about the best way. From a uh let's just say that um business leader, or maybe not even the leader, um, someone has good intentions, and what I've found is from a cultural standpoint, that one of the best ways to build culture is to lead with Christian principles, right? So I think in my experience, it's always been how do we walk alongside people, pour into people, um, and live a life like Christ, you know, where he was serving other people all the time. And I think it's a way to approach culture, and culture is a buzzword, right? It's like, oh, there's so many things we can do for culture, but to me, it is an opportunity um to love on people in a certain way. So uh I find myself trying to act those things out more than really talk about them, but I think there are ways to go about it um that may be better than others. So I don't I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that. I think that's really interesting. I think from a spiritual perspective, I think it's the labels and the terminology that spooks a lot of people, right? I don't think anything, any word turns more heads or makes more people feel uncomfortable than when you say Jesus Christ. I mean, whether using it in vain or just bringing up his name, everybody just kind of like, you know, I mean, some people have normalized to that phrase, uh, that maybe use it uh a lot in frustration or or otherwise. But I I think when you start talking Bible and you start talking scripture and you start talking Jesus, or you know, similar in other religions, I think people get it kind of tense up. There's a there's a natural reaction there. I think based on what you just said there, the why, you can accomplish that and probably never mention any of those. I think it's the question is how important are the labels? Certainly, if you're trying to exemplify or exhibit or maybe tell a story of why it's important to be that way or why it's productive, you know, why these principles are productive. But in the absence of that, for example, we have a value that's called we serve, right? We serve others first, and we talk about that's not just people in poverty, that's just not just nonprofit organizations, that is anyone that's maybe having a bad day. We have a very liberal interpretation of we serve, and that in and of itself is a Christian principle, and you can introduce those to an organization, you can hold an organization accountable to those, you can exemplify those and never have to mention the Bible or Jesus. So that's where I say it goes back to the why. If that's really the case, you know, how much religion needs to be incorporated into that? I don't know. Yeah. Uh TJ, you've probably been in certain situations where you've had different leadership um that may be stronger, or uh any examples come to mind, or anything, you know, as you have gone throughout your different careers and your different companies where this has come up as a topic, you've been more in the corporate world, uh, maybe it hasn't come up at all. What are your kind of thoughts on it?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think, you know, one of the things that I've always struggled with is unpacking that buzzword culture. And, you know, what are the elements of it that are impactful at a business level? And just what are the elements of it in general? What are the things when somebody says, because it's so overused, and I think that may help the audience, because it's so overused, and it's really only typically used at the executive level, culture, culture, culture, culture, culture. Um, unpacking some of those terms, unpacking that term and understanding from both of your perspectives, uh, you know, that's where I've seen it fail in businesses that I've been a part of in the past, where people will talk about implementing these particular things, and it'll fall flat because nobody knows what they're looking for. Like, what where are we looking for improvements? What are these things that are supposed to make our business move forward? And the other problem that I've seen in the past is really uh goes goes back to the person that's implementing it and um your ability to kind of determine their level of authenticity. You know, I think when you get into into this domain it becomes fairly easy to suss out whether somebody is doing this because they truly believe that they are going to lend to a good long-term ethos within the organization, or are they just doing this because this is the way that they found to make money within the organization? Right? I'm going to, oh, I'll be the culture person and and uh, you know, I'm gonna put forth some of these generic things, or I'm gonna attach it again to something like Christianity and use this as my vehicle or my conduit to get these elements out into the um foundation of our organization to help us succeed in whatever way they think how in however they think success looks like. But I think for me, it one of the areas they fell down, and you guys can expound on this, is when we talk culture, what are the what are the core elements that we're looking to um influence to and how do we measure that success?
SPEAKER_01:I think the when you say that, it's like maybe we need to just start with defining culture, yeah. Because that's a really interesting question. What is a culture? Um and the way that I would probably define that is so culture, you have a group of people that believe in a vision of a company, and then the health of those people in the organization as a whole is kind of how I would describe culture. So you have it's hard to get people united around a common goal and a vision. It's hard to get anybody's attention and get them excited about something long term, short term, you can get people excited. Like we we run into this at uh at all the companies, things get stale. I mean, there's a reason why restaurants refresh their brands all the time, right? Um, there's there's companies that are constantly doing different things because things get stale, they even get repetitive within a company. I mean, we've been doing this monthly meeting for a decade now, and we're constantly having to reinvent it. And because it's just like, oh, well, you know, it used to be this, and then we like, okay, we're gonna do lunches, and everyone's excited about lunches, and then now lunches are like, well, who wants to make lunch? It's it's a lot of work, and so there is this trying to keep things fresh, trying to keep people engaged, and then I would also say, like, the health of a person, generally speaking, if you can get a person in a good spot, um, personally, they're gonna be a better contributor to the team. So the level in the of engagement, the level of health of of an individual, and how to help them kind of achieve what they're trying to achieve inside of this bigger ethos, which which I would define as culture, which is very challenging because guess what? Not one shoe fits all. So you're looking at every different person with different needs, different desires, different wants, different challenges. And so when you're trying to build a culture, you're trying to be inclusive of those, you're trying to understand those. And probably back to your authenticity point is um there's a there's a saying trust over tension. If you have built enough trust and you've built a relationship with someone and they know you care about them, which takes time and it takes a genuine, authentic approach, your ability to approach them and help them in life, I think changes drastically.
SPEAKER_00:Do we think that it helps to be overt about your again, you know, your your kind of organizational foundation as it relates to that, meaning something to the effect of let's look at Chick-fil-A. Always an example people use. I had somebody come up to me the other day and they were raving. And I mean, everybody's been to Chick-fil-A dozens of times, and this wasn't somebody's first experience there, but they were just reinforcing the fact that, like, where do they get these people? You know, they're not paying Chick-fil-A employees$50 an hour, but they all have that same uh mannerisms, they have the same mannerisms, they have the same excitement and kind of emotional exuberance when dealing with customers. And it's and is that because they know going into this, like Chick-fil-A is very straightforward. I've never been through their new higher training, I've never been through an interview there, but based on what you see, you would imagine they're pretty straightforward with kind of what their foundational uh tenants are for that particular brand. So, like, is is that kind of is that a good thing? Because and and I say that kind of um in reaction to your point about I can only imagine, right? Because, like you said, building a good culture, if it was you and another person, would be okay, let me look at what drives this other person, let me look at what makes them happy, uh, where their passions are, and then we will curate the culture to um serve those needs as best we can. But when you have a hundred people and not one size fits all, then you do run into a situation, a scenario where you're going to have bad apples, not necessarily bad people, right? But uh people that don't fit the narrative as it relates to kind of what you're trying to build. And so they need to go and find something else versus all right, you know what you're getting into. We are uh very upfront about you know the things that are important to us. And if if you're not here to help others grow in whatever area of life they're passionate about, and you're just here to be cutthroat and get money, you're not cut out for this. So, like, do we believe that it's important to be overt like that and let people know? Um, or is there another method to the madness?
SPEAKER_01:I think it absolutely is. As I think about this, I think culture. I mean, I I I looked very briefly on on Chat GPT and what is workplace culture, shared set of values, beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors that shape how people interact and work together within an organization. As I was listening to you guys talk, there's an element of culture that's about clarity. Clarity and expectations, how you do business, and what your value proposition is, right? I think that's what makes Chick-fil-A so great because when you have clarity on those things, then you can hire for them and you can find the people who best exhibit those traits and characteristics that align with how you do business and the value that you're bringing to your clients. Crew Car Wash is another one. Fantastic in the in you know, this region of they hire the right people that have those dispositions towards the way they do business and the value that you're offering, and it does, it allows for a unique experience. The more horsepower that you have aimed at a single value proposition that you're bringing to your customers, I think is is how organizations like that set themselves apart. Now, what what I what's interesting for me, and what I would you know like to circle this back to the start is as we talk about clarity and expectations and doing business, how you do business, what your value proposition is, going back to Christianity or faith or whatever it is, how does that play a role, right, in either bringing clarity or you know, going back to the why? Why do people and are leaders or others within an organization look to incorporate their faith in the context of driving a great culture?
SPEAKER_00:I think you've called it out in prior podcasts, and you you've been kind of, I wouldn't say obsessed, but this has been something that you've over the last 20 years have brought to the forefront numerous times, and that's the duration with which those values have permeated throughout history, right? Like the Bible lasting as long as it has, and when you look at some of these call some of these businesses, it's crazy because some of the businesses you never thought would disintegrate and have. And you wonder if you are inserting these values or building a company with these values, if that will help ensure longevity because you're focused on something else, something I found fascinating. It's just um, I mean, it's not necessarily super relevant to this, but uh it's kind of mind-blowing. Again, you look at some of the his history of companies like BlackBerry, Starbucks is struggling massively. I don't know if you guys have seen that. Um, they've they've laid off 2,000 employees, they're closing stores for the first time ever. You want to talk about a brand that you never thought would downturn ever.
SPEAKER_01:Um the Marion one is, and I can tell you we're we're supportive.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm sure. Right? But like a lot of these other things. And so, you know, I wonder looking at some of these businesses going forward, it's like, all right, well, these particular um do you know why they're struggling?
SPEAKER_01:Do you have any idea?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, the the the people that I mean, there's a lot of speculation, right? So their stock uh prices drop fairly significantly, but the speculation is things are too expensive. Um, that the level of customer service in certain markets is down, you know, you you're not gonna see I I think you see in markets where Starbucks is newer, even here really, um here being Indiana. I mean, it's been it's been over a decade, but like you know, it's been much, much longer out west. And I think in certain markets, you know, you're seeing um again, cost of goods, you know, getting a an Americano for five dollars is ridiculous. And um, I think I went and got three drinks the other day, it was 25 bucks or something like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um drinks, a few sandwiches,$34.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and and there's so many alternatives now, right? Every every fast food company wants to make a good coffee.
SPEAKER_01:Seven brews just came here to Marion. We got another one breaking ground. That's just Marion.
SPEAKER_00:Like, there's so everybody's buying for pieces of this pie. And I think that there were things, and this this could be again up for speculation. This is assumptions, but if you look at some of the policies that Starbucks kind of aligned themselves with um in certain times in in the last 20 years, it's caused issues, right? Where they've had to lock bathrooms because of you know problems in certain metropolitan areas, where they've had to close locations because of you know certain um again, you know, policies in certain areas. So I think that could speak to, and and I'm not calling them like this satanic brand, because they're not, um, but it it speaks to but your hypothesis, if I'm hearing you correctly, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I thought if you expound on this, your hypothesis is the absence of time-proven values. Let's just maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, but say that they have kind of floated with the societal trends, yeah, that that has potentially proved problematic for them. And that may be why businesses look to incorporate some of these more lasting principles so they don't have a similar negative.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's very, very well articulated. I think that's that's absolutely something that and I don't think anybody I don't think very many people, I mean the fact you guys are thinking about it is awesome, but I don't think very many people think that way, right? And I don't think very many people hire that way, especially as you get into these organizations that are that that require highly specifically trained people on uh you know a particular type of technology or or whatever, they're not necessarily looking for that person's morals and values. They're looking at, hey, do they have this very specific skill set that'll drive my business forward and it's not being balanced out.
SPEAKER_01:There's a couple of um things you guys touched on that I'd like to talk about. The Chick-fil-A. So one of the things interesting about Chick-fil-A, so obviously there's rules and guidelines and values that that they embody. Um, but one of the biggest things is their owner works there, right? So like if you own a Chick-fil-A, you don't just it's not like owning 12 McDonald's franchises. Like you work at Chick-fil-A, you take the trash out at Chick-fil-A.
SPEAKER_00:You only own two, right?
SPEAKER_01:And and they're present, they're present owners. So I I wonder, and I'm curious, I've got several things, but how important do you guys think it is for the owner to be present and what type of impact do you think that has positive or negative on an organization?
SPEAKER_00:I think I think it depends on the I think it depends on the organization. Um, and I think in certain industries, really in specific service, it's vital. Uh, you know, we have a good friend who owns uh a number of restaurants, well, two really, um, because he's we we have uh one friend who started this restaurant, another friend that's a partner in it, and this guy works, I don't know if he does it as much anymore, but at one point was working 80 hour weeks, and people say like they they throw those numbers around a lot, you know, 80 hour weeks, which they they really don't, maybe they work six days, but this guy would really work open to close at one of his restaurants at least six days a week, um, which is call at 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. Um, or or whatever. And it made a massive difference in that particular. So it's a it's a franchise that was started uh in Texas or in or out on the West Coast, one of the two. He found the concept, brought it here, has become the most successful franchisee they've ever had to the point that they wanted to buy his franchise back underneath the corporate umbrella and have him come run everything. And he decided not to. But um being there, putting forth that effort, um you know, showing people that he's willing to roll his sleeves up and work hard, and and at the same time being there to ensure that those customer interactions are consistent. I think that's very important. So in a service industry where you're touching, you know, customers on a regular basis uh in an industry like that hundreds of times a day, I think it's important to be there and get consistency until you have leaders that really embody that same thing. And then I think you still need to be present to continue to build the trust that we talked about earlier. Um so yeah, I think it's I think it's important for sure. I I've seen it just so many times. I've seen the opposite of it being in the service industry and seeing people try to operate things remotely and just watching it cave in.
SPEAKER_01:I know that it it appears that Chick-fil-A, that that's a big one. And I think the customer interaction and the culture, but even like a crew car wash, I'm guessing the owner isn't around at a lot of the car washes, but they've been able to achieve a high level of customer service. So the balance between now, I don't know about their culture and their values, I'm not around, and and um we don't have one of those here, but there's probably different ways to achieve it. But I was curious um on how ownership could potentially influence that. I mean, my take on it is I think when the company is just getting started and getting going, it's it's it's imperative. They have to be the one to set the vision, the mission, the values until it it becomes a part of the company. And then, you know, as you mentioned, once there are leaders in place that are accountable for carrying that forward, I think that's okay as long as you are measuring it appropriately. I think for me, it's feedback loops. And as long as you have the right feedback loops in place, I think once the company gets going and those values are instilled in kind of day-to-day operations, as long as you continue to measure that those are in place, I think you can do better from a distance. Uh, but early on, I don't think there's any, and I'm learning this the hard way, there's there's any um substitute for the owner being there to set the path. What about I mean, this is a so we're in relatively small organizations, but as you get layers, and we've seen it happen to some of our friends in the that have much larger businesses who feel like they've hired the right person who have certain beliefs and cultural beliefs and way to treat people, and you get enough layers in, and by the time you get to the the team, it's it's not there. Or how do you protect against that? Um, how how real is that? I mean, I know in Fortune 500 it's probably way different, but even in someone that has 3,000 employees or a thousand employees, how do you how do you embody that and pull that through to make sure that that that that doesn't get lost?
SPEAKER_00:I think you're you're you know, I think you said something about that I took with when it comes to the balance between being present, being and and then establishing these really um these really strong values and continuing to reinforce and be consistent. I think that's a benefit of the the Christian values is they're pretty cut and dry, right? Like there's there are different ways to interpret scripture, but at the same time, there are some some real core things about it that you can constantly go back to and reinforce and reinforce and reinforce and reinforce versus trying to and I think that's where you see some of these major problems. I will say this when I was at Microsoft, which is about as big as you can get uh from an organizational standpoint, one of the things that was really daunting for me was that they were, we were, we were part of the internet group at Microsoft, right? And that was a time where they were trying to figure it out. They were getting killed by Yahoo, right? They were getting killed by a lot of these other entities in the space. The only reason MSN was even somewhat winning at the time was because it was the default website that was opened when you opened your Internet Explorer browser. And so what they were doing, instead of going back to the same core things that drove the company forward, is they were re-orging and changing and re-orging and changing, and you never knew what was coming next, who you were going to report to. And then those people weren't necessarily hired for anything other than the fact that they had the ability to, you know, that they were a systems engineer and had the ability to work on a computer and had the ability to code, you know, in a particular language. So it just was this it was this lack of trust and this complete uncertainty, and it created a lot of chaos. And a lot of people that I worked with eventually ended up leaving the organization or going somewhere else that was a little bit more stable with inside the larger umbrella of that company. So I think that you know, it does get difficult. And I think where you see things fall down is when people don't stay consistent with those feedback loops of their direct reports, you know, or and and you know, a lot of times, I mean, nobody's impervious to getting swindled, meaning that, you know, I know individuals that we we know that own larger businesses um had the had the philosophy of hiring good people and then figuring it out later, which was great. Like they were hiring people again because their core principles aligned aligned with the ownership's core principles and great things happened with those individuals in place. And I was there for a lot of those great things, but there are also people that are in it for a different reason. And again, saying this earlier, that different that's fine. If you want to be on Wall Street and all it is is about the zeros, go do that. That's cool. But you know, when you're that person and you're grading against everything else in the organization because that person happens to be a phenomenal salesman and sold the owner on this idea of this utopia, and the owner bought in, and then once that happened, oops, you know, and this bad apple starts to sow its seeds throughout the organization, and then I think you find yourself in in uh disarray. And we've seen it happen a handful of times. Or if if the owner sees a problem within the organization and they're just looking again to a specific skill set or a specific resume to solve this problem, and they miss the you know baggage that could potentially come with that person because they're focused on such a uh small mic, you know, a small area of the business versus the larger, bigger picture.
SPEAKER_01:I think what I hear you saying is is I would summarize is hiring and training. That's how. If you hire someone at Chick-fil-A, it's a manager that doesn't value customer service or that value that unique value proposition that they bring to their clients or how they do business, you're in trouble. And so your ability, I mean, at Liberty, that was a Fortune 100 company, we had interview guides, we had like specific things to teach layers and we had systems in place to teach people how to hire and the people that we wanted to bring in to uh continue to maintain what we did for our clients and um how we did business. And so I think that's where you get it. It's it's bringing in the right people who are passionate about doing business that way and are naturally dispositioned through their experiences so far thus far in life to do business that same way and then continue to reinforce that. You know, for example, for us at IMG, every time someone comes into the organization, we sit down and we go through the mission and the operating principles. Like those are small parts of a system, but those are important, continuing to reinforce those, continuing to so that that's instilled throughout the entire organization and 100%, it's extremely difficult, I think, as you get into hundreds or even thousands of employees. But your ability to continue to reinvent and have a sophisticated system that's fresh and that um allows you to bring in the right people and then continue to mold them the right way is how you do your best. I mean, to TJ's point, if you're you have thousands of people and you get several layers in there, you're going to make some bad hires, you're gonna make some bad moves, and you're gonna have to concede some things. There are gonna be times that you're gonna have to concede certain, you know, characteristics or qualities to get people to keep the business continuing, and you've just got to minimize that to the best of your ability. And you see the best companies in the world have found a way to do it, but it's it's through sophisticated systems.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like this is a some of this could be a microcosm of society at large. I'd be interested for both of your perspectives, where do you draw the line? Meaning that, you know, we talked earlier about. Not one size fitting all, and having to make um at times make adjustments for a particular person or group of people. And we've seen in society at large that the squeaky wheel in a lot of instances gets the oil in certain circumstances. And so, you know, at times in the last however many years, changes have been made at scale to um appease said people. So when you're in an organization like the organizations you guys are part of, at what point you know, is it you know you get here and you're like, okay, like we've made these accommodations, this is getting a little ridiculous. Our core values are these Christian principles here. We have got to go back here. Like we can't continue to do this because it's going to, you know, if we push past this line, this will just dissolve and fade out. Like, where do you draw those lines and how do you draw those lines at your level? And I think that you know, we can utilize that as a blueprint for what you do at scale.
SPEAKER_01:That's really hard to systematize because every situation's different. I think the point that you brought up is where the threshold lies when the exceptions that you're making or the things that you're tolerating are directly violating the values and principles of how then that's you've got to prune. Like that's the that's the imagery, right, or the analogy that's used, you've got to prune the tree and you've got to get some of that toxic behavior out of there because what you tolerate is what people then begin to think is acceptable. So if you're tolerating certain things or certain people who are exhibiting behaviors that are contrary to um, you know, how you do business or how you've kind of identified yourself as an organization, to me, that's the threshold. The tricky part is coming alongside somebody and figuring out why they're uh behaving or performing the way they are and understanding if there's something organizationally that we haven't provided them, training, resources, tools, or whatever that's contributing to that, or if it's an ill intent or just a lack of value alignment and they're on the wrong bus and we need to move forward away from that.
SPEAKER_00:So are there examples you you know, you talked earlier about Liberty Mutual and there being a process for interviewing and having these guides and having these things, but then you also said from a process perspective, you need to keep it fresh. Um, I don't want to bury anybody in this process, but like, are there examples where a somebody you've recognized something and that has actually become part of the process? Like, oh, this this person actually has a legitimate uh perspective on, and oh, I'm wrong, or oh, we have outgrown this. This actually makes sense. We and you know, we've changed this part or or this is help, this is uh cause us to adjust this value a little bit versus man, like we had to prune. Like, are there examples you can think of, or is that isn't that me asking a little bit too much? I'm not asking for names, I'm just thinking, you know, you got a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:So I will tell you one of the things that we did a couple years ago is we added two new principles. Um before each other, you know, before the person next to you, like want them to to succeed, and really the premise around before each other is we just found that you know in certain circumstances that people were not for each other or they were for themselves more than they were for. So, you know, as we as we leaned into um the organization as we grew, there were things that we had to re-evaluate or add these additional principles because we wanted to um we saw certain consistent problems happen over time. I mean, I can't tell you the amount of times that we all have created storylines on what the truth actually is, and that's the second one is seek to understand. It's like you and Todd have an experience, and I talk to Todd and I call you on the way home, and I've got, you know, I'm here and here, right? So it's really easy to jump to a conclusion about something and not have all the facts. And there hasn't been one time where I have gotten a story that once I hear the other side, it adds to the picture to be able to seeking to understand and be for each other is like, look, you want to win, you want your team to win, we want everyone to win. How do we help each other win? And then seek to understand. Don't assume negative intent, don't assume that someone's out to get you, don't assume that this is unfair. So, like, part of our evolution has realized, well, we had our core principles, which I've I think have been pretty standard and they've driven results and they've been good, but almost the way we treat and interact with each other, um, we had to put some guidelines around that. Like, we want everybody to win, and we want everyone to have an opportunity to be successful here. Now, where we probably falter the most is we've always given a ton of grace. And you know, to Todd's point, we look, we lean in and we're like, okay, why is this not working out? What's going on here? Once we understand there's an issue, we're trying to lean in and say, okay, what can we do better? We first look at ourselves, we seek to understand how did IMG not prepare you correctly? How can we make this better? And so you ask anyone that works at IMG, they'll probably laugh of like, you know, we generally probably don't fire or part ways with people, you know, six to 12 months after we should have, because we're trying to put that person in a better place. We've moved people to different departments to trying to find better fits. Like, we want to help people find what they were called to do. So we go to the nth degree to turn over every stone to try to put people in a position to succeed. And there's been times that we are not the lifelong fit, and that's okay. And I think one of the toughest things for me is to realize that people are gonna come and go, and some people are gonna be there a long time and some aren't, and that's okay. Yeah, I agree with with all of that. And to go back to your question about how to, you know, as things evolve, certainly I think the underlying values that you're hiring for does not evolve. I think the way you maybe assess people on those values, depending on where you're at and who you're talking to, can certainly evolve. And there's a lot of innovation around how to evaluate whether or not they exhibit those values. You know, it used to be like, for example, um, over the years, behavioral interviews. It went from, hey, do you do this to tell me about a time when, right? And that so there is innovation in that process. I think the skills that you are hiring for can evolve. I think the underlying values and traits that you want people to exhibit doesn't, but the skills that you can, and again, the way that you can assess people on those skills, whether it be via case studies or real situations. Microsoft is one of the first that I think did a lot of that, putting people in real situations and seeing how they would react to them. And then I think there are a lot of this is more with respect to the internal training. There are things that you clarify, there are different points of emphasis that you want to drive home, like Trent talked about. And some things that you think are obvious then don't become as obvious and they become a point, and then you realize you need to clarify that. So I'll bring this back spiritually. It's kind of a interesting thing. We were talking at breakfast this morning. We have a theology Thursday group that gets together on occasion, and we were talking about Mary uh being without sin. So the Catholic Church believes that Mary was the other person that had no sin, right? And so what was interesting about this, and a lot of people kind of chip away at is that this was not kind of deemed official teaching in the Catholic Church until 1854, right? So it's like 1,800 years later, someone says, Hey, well, if you go back and the magisterium, which is kind of the governing body of the Catholic Church, kind of the way they tell that story, there are some hints in scripture that kind of point to her unique level of grace and disposition and ties to Eve and the in the Old Testament and things. But if you go back and look at that, they talk about that was actually over the course of history in Christianity, that was common knowledge that Mary was without sin. And it wasn't until that point in time as some of the other denominations started to split and form their own opinions that it actually ever became debate. It wasn't anything to ever be clarified until that point, where there started other positions started to develop around that. So there's a that just ties back to, I think over time, you get different dynamics in the workplace, and you need to clarify different things that may have been table stakes and a very obvious thing at a previous point in society or within a workplace culture. Wow. What is your guys' take on? So as you think of the Chick-fil-A's of the world or the hobby lobbies, and they're very vocal about what they stand for, Christian business, what their principles are. Do you think that attracts um Christian uh people? And does that ultimately give them an upper hand that in in maybe customer service businesses? Is that good? Is that bad? What are your what's your take on someone that a business that takes that approach? Uh I think it um I think it absolutely, depending on the value proposition of that company and their client base, 100%. I think it can be a huge asset. I think there are some ways where it can work against it, but I would say overall it's a absolutely net positive for someone who's willing to lean into that, provided that's the nature of the value proposition that they're bringing to their clients, and that's the way they do business. That's gonna attract people. So I actually had a chance to listen to David Green speak, who's this founder, CEO, and founder of Hobby Lobby a few weeks ago at a conference in downtown Indianapolis. Incredible guy. For the last 20 plus years, they have been giving away 50% of their profits. The billions 50%, because that's the maximum that the government would give discounts for when they first put this in place, would give uh give tax um credits for or whatever. They are giving, they give 50% of their profits away. They have restructured the company in this weird way that there's only one percent outstanding, and it's like split amongst seven of them because they didn't want this to be about all the ownership and who has what. And it's incredible. The things that they do and the way they operate is extremely unique. And yeah, I think there's a lot of people that are super compelled by that. And you're probably people at different phases in their lives that not aren't worried about the zeros or whatever that are very attracted to that, provided that's their disposition. It's a it's an incredible story, but yeah, I think absolutely that can be a benefit.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's a lot less polarizing than it used to be. I mean, I can remember when you know there were uproars and and like Hobby Lobby was in the um kind of had the sites on them for some of their their views on particular things in Chick-fil-A. And but I think that as you see more at least national conversion and and national um draw towards religion, you're seeing a lot more people explore this that were not spiritual or or just spiritual and not, you know, with a particular denomination, as you see that, you see this become less polarizing, and people I think are starting to realize that at the end of the day, there is this and then there's nothing. Um, there's still people that have the perspective of, you know, that it have a perspective that differs from something that is that is based in religion, but I I do think that it's a lot less polarizing than it used to be. Um, you know, I was talking the other day, um my son plays soccer with a guy who runs facilities for um Chick-fil-A in the Midwest. And the volume, I mean, you can tell this by driving past the Chick-fil-A, the volume they do is unbelievable. And I think it has just as much to do with the quality of the product as it has to do with the quality of the service. And it's it's I mean, it's staggering the amount of money they generate in that organization. And and so I think that that in and of itself speaks to it.
SPEAKER_01:What would be the the counter argument? What's the downside of doing that?
SPEAKER_00:Of being like, hey, we're Christian business, this is it earlier with the labels, right? I do think there are people out there that think that if a business is overtly touting their Christian morals and values, that um it's going to detract. Because I think a lot of people get into business and get into this for for that specifically. You know, they want to build something or they want to contribute to something and they feel like the the whole Christian thing is going to be a detractor, or it's something where they're very, it's a very personal thing, like we've talked about. Some people don't want to be overt about it, they don't want to be evangelistic about it, and they don't want to go to meetings and you know, they they make assumptions that okay, well, they have these overt Christian values, then there's probably gonna be all of this um extra that goes into it. You know, they'll say, Oh, yeah, we have our our um meeting weekly that's optional, but 98% of the people go to it, and so I'm gonna be the one person sitting in my cube, you know, or they're in there and there's all these different um, you know, Christian things on the walls and different like, and so I I think there are people that there are people out there that do think it's a personal thing and they don't want that woven into their workplace. I mean, it's the it's the having religion in schools debate that's you know a hundred years old. Like there, there are certain lines that people don't feel should be crossed because they feel like that encroaches on not even their rights, but others' rights. And and so I think that's the other side to this, is it could be off-putting for people, especially people that have spent a lot of time in their life focused on a particular pursuit that has no religious basis at all. Right. If I've spent my entire life becoming the best at whatever it is occupationally that I'm gonna do, I don't want this other distraction here. I want to come here and be great at this, and that's what drives me, and that's what I'm passionate about, and that's fine. So I do think that those labels could be detractors.
SPEAKER_01:I think it becomes an issue when it's not genuine. If it is, hey, I'm gonna say my Christian, my business is Christian just because I think that'll attract people or uh, you know, or there's not the underlying the why you're doing it isn't aligned with kind of how things are being executed or run or lived out. I think that's where the it becomes a risk. I think the other part of it is um depending on what you're trying to accomplish, I I think can have different outcomes. If it's, hey, let's talk about the fruit of the spirit. There's like 13 fruits, fruit of the spirit, right? The kindness, gentleness, whatever, uh, versus hey, Jesus Christ is the answer to your your life problems. Those are that's two different dispositions. Not that either one of those is right or wrong, but I think um they to TJ's point, those can maybe generate some different reactions from employees. I always thought one of the things that I find interesting is I would prefer almost it's gonna sound really weird, to be around or have opportunities to not be around Christians in general. Um there's a say that one more time. I prefer to be around or not to be around. Not to to some extent. Um there was a decade of my life where I don't think I did a lot of Christian things. Um and there's a relatability and there's an opportunity when I think about like how Jesus lived his life and where he spent his time and the opportunity to meet people where they're at. Um I think there's just an incredible, I get more joy out of like that loving on people that are maybe not far along in their faith journey or maybe have none at all. Um and in a business, when you put someone in an environment that cares about them, that shows them something different, and maybe have never seen that in their life, the transformational change can be seen and it's pretty exciting. Um and not saying that I don't love hanging around with Christians either, but there's something about the rawness of working with people and around people, and and we would say even at IMG that you know, a lot the ownership team, you know, our leadership team gets together on Monday mornings and we pray for the company. We talk about the different things that are happening now. We do that, and nobody really knows we're doing that outside of the people that know, you know, a couple of executive assistants that see the calendars. But that's not like, hey, everybody, we get together on Mondays to pray for you and the company and the direction and give thanks. But it's hey, what's going on in people's lives? How can we lean in? How can we continue to ask for guidance and wisdom? So I think there's a little bit of the core that there's got to be some alignment on the way you approach, and there's a lot of different ways to do it. Some people hire chaplains, some people have different meetings that are optional. Um, but there's something about for me, anyways, working with people and having an opportunity to love on people that may not know Jesus.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that really this sparks something. This is gonna be another interesting comment. I think that that hearing you say that can kind of gives me a a thought on how people could also see, you know, we just we just talked about the whole negative side, what's the other side to it? And I think this speaks to a larger perceptional or perception, that's not a word. This speaks to a larger issue with perception of Christians, and that's the whole pious thing, like right? The oh, they think they're better than me because they are that they're down, they're this far down the path of their journey, and I'm not, and I don't want to go somewhere and have somebody tell me how awful I am because I have these perceived shortcomings as an individual. I mean, you deal with it with kids all the time. I was talking to Kaylin last night, and I was she we were talking about parenting styles, and she's been sending me things showing parents like doing things that are similar to stuff. And I told her, I said, look, you know, just because I'm your parent doesn't mean that I think I'm infallible. Like I know areas, you know, I I she was saying something about she was gonna start sending me these things where parents were this parent was talking about ways you should parent. And they they were saying, if you do this or you do this, and I said, Okay, here's the thing, man, is that parenting is so specific to the environment and the situation and everything that nobody can really tell you how to do it. There are some basic things that you need to do, and I think the most basic of those things is um being present and spending time and thinking about it and working towards being a better person and recognizing that yes, I've had instances where my anger's got the best of me and I need to be better here, need to be better here, need to be better here. And I think that potentially in this particular instance, when we're talking about this scenario, is I think people a lot of times make this assumption that somebody who has these core values or this touting these core values of their business thinks they're better. And that's why they may not want to engage when in all reality, um, that person also recognizes their shortcomings. It's just it's hard to convey that uh in this in the same message, right?
SPEAKER_01:That's 100% true.
SPEAKER_00:You're conveying about because you're not saying you're perfect, you're not saying that you're a better person because you're at a particular it's like the parallel in running is is like me asking someone to go run that doesn't run a lot.
SPEAKER_01:I can't I can't run with you. Like, I mean, I just there's like there they're they've got that intimidation factor when I'm just like, dude, I'll run 11-minute miles as as short as long as you want. Like when you come with an openness of and and that does happen, and that's happened within our organization. Of like, there is a little like, oh, well, those people that go there or do this, or and I don't know how to really combat that stigma. That's a real thing that happens within all organizations.
SPEAKER_00:Well, happens at a global level, too, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was just gonna hit on one more element of this because I think you're certainly speaking to just a general intimidation factor, right? But I think generally what's interesting about this, I want to explore in the fitness, some in the fitness realm, someone who runs a six-minute mile is clearly more fit than someone who runs a 12-minute mile at their maximum capacity. That's true, right? What I think you're saying, it was interesting here is that as you say, I like to love on people who don't know Jesus, you know, there is the drawing the parallel to running insinuates that you're at a better place than them, right? You're the six-minute miler from a spiritual perspective, they're the 12-minute miler, and that you're a better person andor at a better place, which to me is a little bit different than their intimidation of just interacting with someone who is has much more knowledge or depth on a topic. And I'd like to hear, you know, that kind of how how do you handle that perception as well? Yeah, I I didn't mean it in that context. I I I see that it came across that way. I think I meant it in the context of like there's a scale of I've I've used a scale of like zero, I don't even, I've never heard of the Bible, 10, I'm I'm a pastor, right? There's this scale, and I think I'm somewhere in the middle, and I don't feel like the five to tens spiritually, I can add a ton of value to. So, like over here, if you're running with the person that's running a six-minute mile, they're not coming out, you know, teaching you mechanics. They may just want to hang out with you, they may just want to go on a jog with you, and they're not trying to say, well, I'm better, but it's more so just like an opportunity to just have an interest in someone, listen to them. Um, it's it's easier for me and my skill set to just be present with them. And it may not be talking about Jesus at all. It just may be being in a room, it's easier to help someone like to kind of talk through some of those things because if you've been through something, you can have shared experiences. I think that's the that's the context I've actually meant it in. I uh yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:No, is it because I mean we see this a lot? Um, it's it's really been constant the last couple of years as a at a societal level where people are pointing fingers at Christians and and you know, oh, they're using the, you know, it's always the Christians that are the most judgmental, or they, you know, hate people with these lifestyle choices, or or whatever, right? They're using the Bible to to down, you get where I'm going with this. And I think something, and so I wonder, is it that that causes this, I guess, perspective on level of spirituality? Like you said, there's a definitive difference between somebody who does a six-minute mile and a 12-minute mile from a max fitness perspective. And even if you look at mental, like we can recognize and not be offended by hey, this monk is way more mentally acute than I am, and is able to meditate for days on end, and I can't meditate for 30 seconds, and so I know I'm not there. And when it comes to understanding scripture and applying it to your life or whatever, there's a different thing. Like people who are here like look at this person potentially with angst, or they're like, like they think they're better. Is it because uh you know, you know what I mean? Versus a lot of times you don't like you can you can look at these other measurements a little bit more objectively than you do this this whole thing. It's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is. Uh it's a really interesting dynamic because I think the whole rating scale in and of itself portrays that, right? Like I'm further along on this journey, and I think uh I've I've kind of gotten to this level of achievement. You haven't gotten there yet. It's okay. I I'd like to bring you along to my level. And I think that's hard to TJ's point to your point. It's easy to do when it's a very subjective, concrete, measurable thing. Right. You know, in in these other cases, it's almost like does that rating scale is how you're viewed in God's eyes, right? Like someone who may have very little scripture knowledge or very little not go to mass, maybe a nine out of ten in God's eyes because the way they live their life and the principles that they exhibit and whatever. Yet we might be looking at them or you know, as someone a Christian, right? When I say we, it's exactly kind of what you're talking about. Christians are saying, well, it's a two out of, you know, hey, I know you're you haven't really, you know, learned the Bible and that and whatever, and we're kind of you know feeling like we're in the middle or a seven or whatever. Like, is that what happens there that we kind of implicitly unintentionally but implicitly judge kind of where a person's at spiritually based on our own measuring stick? I think that's really what you're talking about, is we like to use the measuring stick that has us furthest along. That's just a natural bias. Yeah. Um, I think the way I the way I would answer that is again, I don't be like, oh, there's a two, there's a three. I think it's a relatability thing. So it's like if I'm at IMG and we have a group that meets and we get together, um, there's a level of comfort within that group, and there's a level of there's a there's people that'll speak, that'll not speak, there's different things. What we're trying to do is do life together, right? So it's like, you know, how does how how does the fruit of the spirit, how does that relate into my life, or how does having faith it relate to my life and my situation? So it's taking some of these biblical principles and it's talking in a group. And I don't think a lot of this is one-on-one, hey, let me tell you what I know, because I've always kind of steered away from like, let me tell you about the Bible, let me show you how to pray. It's more of a like, hey, here's something that I've learned in context of a group, and then there's discussion of how it applies to our life. So for me, it's the ability to relate to people in a place that where I've been and still am, because I don't think any of us have it figured out. That's the other part of this, is like, I think you're you're, you know, the scale kind of goes like this, right? There's different areas, we all have different ups and downs. And then I think there's a side, there's a a cycle in it, right? There's some times that I get in a good challenge and I'll get in my Bible every day, and I'll feel, you know, and then there's times where I won't get in it for weeks. And so there's this cycle of like, you know, and it seems like when things aren't going good, it's when you're locking back in and then things start going good and you lock out. And I think we all go through these cycles. So what I meant to kind of communicate and all that, and is in not judging people in different things, I can't get in front of a bunch of pastors and and I'm not, I'm not even gonna feel comfortable praying in front of a bunch of pastors. Um, when I get in a room with individuals that I would consider more peers, I feel like I can have discussions around different things and we can grow together and we can relate more. So that's really what I was trying to communicate when I had this scale here. It's not that I'm a five and you're a one and there's a six-minute, a 12-minute. We do go through different phases. There was a time when I wouldn't have prayed in front of anybody. Um, there was a time where I was super uncomfortable being more public about my religion, I would have never shot this podcast. And so there are growth moments in our life where we get to a level of comfort or we've done something enough where we're willing to communicate and talk about it. And that's no different than running. If you're training somebody or you're doing anything else, and I don't think if you're training someone and you put together a running plan, you're not saying I'm better than you, right? You're a you're coaching, you're walking alongside. And I think this is how do you walk alongside someone? And the thing that I've always tried to do is meet people where they're at. I don't care where you're at on this chart. I want to meet you where you're at. I want to be a friend, I want to love on you, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna Bible thump you, I'm not gonna bullhorn you. And I think that is where trying to walk that line, I think is very interesting, and it only can come through genuine relationship, and that's where the authenticity and care for a person. That's a hundred percent true. Um, I feel like relationship, I think for me, what I try to remind myself of is I do I think there's a bias for all of us to look at the measuring sticks to which we are already further along on. So if you look at living a life like Christ, there's scriptural knowledge and there's prayer. That's two pieces there's gratitude, there's sacrifice. Sacrifice, there's serving, right? Like there are many elements of living a life like Christ that, while they're founded in scripture, have nothing to do with necessarily with scriptural knowledge. You could be very, very, very good at some of these things. Are those things coming up? Are we like, I look at like a Stacey King, she, from a serving perspective, as Christ served, probably exhibits that better than anyone in that room. Uh, and there's others that are certainly higher, well higher than I am. Is that part of the dialogue? Are we learning from them on these traits and characteristics of how to serve? Are those the topics we're coming in with for them versus like, hey, kind of prayer and scripture knowledge and incorporating scripture into your life as kind of the measuring stick we're using for this forum because I'm more knowledgeable in that space, and that's what I have to offer, which inherently could, again, unintentionally in all cases, devalue where someone else excels, even within the context of religion, let alone outside of it.
SPEAKER_00:I think it goes back to kind of the beginning of this conversation, which is I think in certain circumstances, to be successful at implementing these things, you have to disarm, disarm the person and humble yourself. You know, like it's it's I want this friendship because it's a two-way street, and there's things that that you know you're going to help me with, and things that I'm gonna help you with, and you're gonna help me. I think a lot of times, you know, when it comes to some of these uh core values and principles people think that there has to be, I mean, and you just listed a bunch, a bunch of things out there, people think that there has to be a definitive best as it relates to that. And it's you said it it's so fluid, it's such an up and down, it's such a roller coaster. One day, you know, we may be at a I mean, this is you know, we may be at a sporting event and we all may be watching our kids play, and one of us flies off the handle and screams at our kid, and the next day it's the next person that's doing that that needs to work on those particular things. So I think you know, it comes back to uh it's such an interesting and intriguing thing. I think there's a lot of value in um uh putting forth uh the the basis of Christianity and utilizing that in the business sense. But I think there's a a very uh interesting way to implement that and whether that's you know labeling or not labeling versus uh how you engage with people and keep yourself humbled and how you again kind of disarm them from from from from excuse me, you know, from getting um having a necessary tension or anxiety about engaging in in religion as it relates to business. Like I think that there's there's a lot there, but um, I do think that it it's important, and I think that people will find as we move forward in business that having these these core principles is is really really valuable.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, in an attempt to kind of tie this up from my perspective, I took a trip to Rome a couple years ago, almost exactly a couple years ago. Um, and I had a chance to go to the Vatican. Uh, I always say if you want to see the muscles of the Catholic Church, go to go to the Vatican, go to St. Peter's. If you want to see the heart of the church, go to Assisi. I went to Assisi, it was where St. Francis of Assisi was from, is where Claire, St. Clair was from, or the poor Claire's. Um, and one of my favorite quotes uh that ties back to at least my approach in the business world, just by the nature of what that is and what that setting is, and then is is his quote, which says, preach the gospel at all times and when necessary, use words. That to me kind of embodies um, I think at least the initial kind of outset approach, and then based on relationships, the quality of the relationship, the depth of relationship, I think will open doors to have further conversations and start to use and introduce terminology and other things, um, andor even invitations, like you have a three defining greatness, there are certain people that based on what they're exhibiting and seeing and the curiosity that's peaked in them, based on how someone is living and what their underlying values are and how that's working out for them, that that can lead to deeper levels. But I think in the workplace, for me, that's kind of the foundation. I would agree, I would say at the end of the day, we've talked about culture and the definition and people feeling valued and appreciated is at the cornerstone of that. One of my favorite analogies is like culture isn't when one person leads, it's part of it, but it's this cup. And when everybody starts to pour into the cup and buy into the culture, at some point in time it starts to overflow. And when that overflows, that's when you have something really special. But it takes an entire team and it takes individuals, not just leaders, caring about one another, whether that's biblically based or not biblically based, that I believe is at the cornerstone is relationships with one another. I think we're put here to be in relationship. If not, I don't know why we're even here. And to me, when you can do that and you can unify it around a common mission, you can create something really special. So appreciate uh you guys dropping in. Um love talking about uh faith and business with my brothers. Obviously, we have a little bit of difference in opinion and like to cover the full spectrum. So hope you enjoyed it. We'll see you next time.