The Dailey Edge Podcast
Join hosts Trent, TJ, and Todd Dailey as they explore the intersections of technology, culture, fitness, and personal growth. Through engaging discussions and personal anecdotes, the trio dives into topics ranging from childhood gaming nostalgia and cutting-edge fitness tech to the pursuit of happiness and lifestyle choices. Whether reminiscing about epic gaming marathons, sharing tips for staying on the forefront of fitness trends, or unraveling the complexities of modern life, The Dailey Edge delivers thoughtful insights, lively debates, and relatable stories for listeners of all walks of life.
The Dailey Edge Podcast
Episode 22: Walking the Tightrope: Excellence and Confidence in Child Development
We explore the delicate balance of pushing children to achieve excellence while maintaining their confidence and nurturing their passion, drawing from our experiences as fathers in competitive youth sports environments.
• Focus on effort rather than outcomes to build sustainable confidence and motivation
• Community and peer relationships often provide the most powerful motivation for children
• Break down excellence into manageable, incremental goals that align with their current abilities
• Be mindful of the challenge-skills balance when setting expectations
• Screen time and technology can significantly impact children's motivation and effort in other areas
• Set appropriate structures and boundaries while still allowing children to develop their interests
• The parenting approach must be tailored to each child's personality and response to feedback
• Patience is essential – excellence often requires years of consistent development
• Ensure children know you're on their team, even when providing constructive criticism
• Finding the right balance between pushing and supporting varies for each child and situation
Excellence isn't about being the best today, but about consistently improving and developing the discipline to work toward long-term goals. The most important thing is helping our children recognize their capabilities while fostering their confidence through appropriate challenges.
Welcome to the Daily Edge, where we bring you the latest insights, opinions and thought-provoking conversations to give you that competitive edge in life, business and beyond. Let's go, welcome back to the Daily Edge. I'm here with my brothers TJ Daly and Todd Daly. Daily Edge. I'm here with my brothers TJ Daly and Todd Daly, and today we're going to stay within our normal theme. We're going to talk a little bit about how to instill excellence without destroying confidence.
Speaker 1:I think when I first think about those things I'm thinking about my kids, but it probably applies to adults too, right? I mean, working towards excellence takes a lot of time. It's probably centered a lot around good habits, but throughout that process there's probably a lot of failure and it's tough to navigate that failure as an adult. It's also tough to coach your kids through that without you know you're terrible, you're not doing this or you need to do this more, and the FOMO and so forth. So I'm going to punt to one of you two who, todd, you want to kick us off here and kind of talk us through that a little bit and maybe how you approach that personally or within your family. I mean, I would just say I've just hit on the challenge of it. It's difficult on so many different fronts. I think there's you want to provide the coaching to help them understand what excellence looks like, but a lot of times that is in the form of hey, you're doing this wrong in some sort of way, whether you're not, you're explicitly saying that, or whether it's just interpreted like that. It's very, very hard saying that or whether it's just interpreted like that, it's very, very hard.
Speaker 1:Obviously, kids, you know, starting from a very young age, the way they engage with the world is more in a playful, experimentative fashion, right? And so you know it's always tough. It's also tough to know timing of when do you begin to provide more structure and or provide more guidance, and how much guidance do you provide and do you look to others to provide? I just, I think it's an infinitely complex thing that I certainly haven't figured out a perfect balance to, but I would just reiterate those particular challenges that we have with all the boys, is you?
Speaker 1:Certainly? I mean I talked about in an earlier episode. I'm very purpose-driven, right? And so I think there is an obligation that we have to honor God with excellence in how we use the gifts and talents that we've been given. And, as I'm saying this out loud, I'm realizing that's probably a lever right In terms of instilling the importance of excellence without destroying confidence, but I think to me it's something that's very, very important, down to the core of why we're here, and so it's something that it's very difficult to just let go of, and so I think that that's also been a challenge.
Speaker 2:But no, I mean, I think that you know it just like anything else. This was probably something we mentioned in one of the first couple of episodes was it takes so much thought. I've had something hit me over the last week. That's interesting.
Speaker 2:There is so much finger pointing and you almost feel like I mean almost every conversation I'm in. I feel like I have to qualify why my kids play these really intense or in these really intense sport leagues, like, oh, it's the only option, or oh, the competition's not great enough. And then there's, you know, in the running world specifically, especially kids running, because running is such an injury ridden sport, just based on what your repetitive motion over and over and over again. There's so much finger pointing as it relates to, you know, doing it this way or doing it that way. You know, in one instance, if you have a kid who is extremely talented and you know the benefits of them, harnessing that talent at this age from a confidence perspective could be fantastic, and so you. And so if it's something that they're really passionate about and they want to do all the time and they're really into it, as a parent you've really got to say, well, goodness, if I hold them back and I'm like no, you're 12. I don't want you running 30 miles a week. Sorry, you can't do that. Well, okay, fine, but maybe because you're doing that, you're not allowing them to release, reach their maximum potential and get that confidence boost by by seeing the fruits of their, their work in the sport and and maybe especially if they're a girl or a woman, they develop at 13 or 14 and it's gone and you missed that window of self-confidence building because you were concerned about you, concerned about potentially long-term health, and that's a valid concern.
Speaker 2:But it goes back to my thing. There's just so much thought involved in there's so many. Every situation is unique. If you have a kid who's winning nationals and winning state competitions because they have an elite physiology, there's a lot to think about. Do I hold them back? Because you hear it all the time no one cares who the best 12 year old is. Well, if they build this immense confidence as a 12 year old because they're succeeding, then you know you've got to weigh that out right Versus. Oh, I don't want you to do this because of whatever reason.
Speaker 2:And there are so many studies and in all reality, there's so many scenarios that contradict each other. On one hand, kids are growing and you're doing these types of activities while they're growing. That could do X, y, z. On the other side, kids recover faster than any—at that age, you recover faster than any— I mean their bones are basically rubber. A kid sprains an ankle, I mean you don't hear of kids spraining ankles at 10. They just. It doesn't happen because everything is so malleable at that age. Um and so it's. It's very interesting, and it does. It requires a lot of analysis in terms of um, you know when the opportunities present themselves to create that confidence and how you approach those while still maintaining the balance on the other side.
Speaker 1:You cover an interesting dimension because there's the how to do it and then there's should you do it the willingness right and at what age is.
Speaker 1:if someone, let's just say, hypothetically you've had kind of a magical combination of things and you do have a kid that wants to, you know, achieve a level of excellence in a certain thing, and there's the aspect of do you let them put in the amount of work potentially that it you know takes to fulfill? That is a whole nother dimension to it. That's really interesting. Were you going to add something? Well, I just, yeah, that was a dimension I wasn't even thinking of. Mine was more along the lines of coaching your kid to reach the full potential and them not necessarily wanting to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know, if you want to tackle it that way, it's like it goes back to sitting down yourself and trying to analyze and figure out where your expectations lie as a person, coaching them to do whatever. And I'll say that this hit me a couple of weeks ago and I talk about Kalen often because it's in a sport that I'm extremely familiar with and it's easy for me to discuss, because it's in a sport that I'm extremely familiar with and it's easy for me to discuss. So I realized, probably so, kayla just graduated from fifth grade and on her board she wrote out you know, they hold up for the last day of school, I want to be a pro runner, and so this was totally on her own. I was actually still asleep when she did it and I look, you know.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of sites out there, platforms out there now, where you can see your child at whatever age, whenever age they start running competitive or club cross country or track. You can see them comparatively against the rest of the country and you can also see them comparatively against kids that have, you know, maybe in the similar school system or similar geographical area, and what they've done go forward. So you look at okay, where's my daughter today? Okay, the kids that are at the top of state of the state in terms of cross country, where were they back then? And you have to kind of. You know there are people that are born with elite physiology and so for them their floor is here. And these are the kids that may have never run a day in their life and they show up for the first day of cross country practice and they run their deal 3k at 610 pace. It just is what it is, where you have other people that are starting way down here and you have to make the decision. Could you get your kid here? Sure you could, but you're going to have to. You're going to have to really pour on the training to get them to that same level. And it may create that resentment Like, should you push them that hard? You know so.
Speaker 2:So for me, the realization that I came to is like, look, it's going to take she's not going to be the best 11, 12, 14, 15, 16. She probably won't be the best at any of those ages because it's going to take a decade to build the engine that is going to. You know, she'll probably catch those people when she's in her twenties. So, like laying down that you know, thinking about it and say, okay, I need to have the expectation based on you know, there may be some anomalies, she may have this massive jump forward, but I need to set my expectations at a level where I'm like, okay, as long as she's improving.
Speaker 2:We put, like you do we set these goals. For you to be a pro runner, you need to improve your 3K time by five seconds a year for the next decade. How do we do that versus? Oh gosh, this girl ran the 3K, or this girl ran the 1500 last week at 509 and my daughter ran it at 558. I've got to pour on all of this mileage right now to get her to that point. And then I create that resentment and then she hates me because and is it worth it? Probably not. So I think once you've set that expectation as to what the goal looks like, then you can put some time and effort into okay, how do I? You know one of the things we do how do we make this fun? How do we make this digestible? Listening to the kid and taking that feedback into consideration In my sport there's so many different things you can do and get the same result.
Speaker 2:In my sport there's so many different things you can do and get the same result.
Speaker 2:If my kid doesn't like running 20 minute tempos, I can get the same result doing 400 repeats with short rests that I would in a tempo. And what I'm doing is I'm creating a scenario where you know I'm helping her build confidence through something that she likes to do a little bit more than that other thing. So it's thing. So that's where my head is at. Let's set these expectations, let's set these goals and then let's think about the things that you know we want adversity because we want them to understand and or see the benefit of overcoming adversity. You get a lot of. You get big dopamine rushes when you do things you don't want to do, but at the same time, at that age, how want to do, but at the same time, at that age, how do we make them a little less more of an intense blow, you know, to to their, just their being? You know, instead of five miles running going out and running five miles, let's find a friend to run three with. So you know, that's kind of where my thoughts are.
Speaker 1:Two things I heard there. One is another dimension of without destroying confidence or destroying relationships yeah, that was another piece. Thoughts are Two things I heard there. One is another dimension of without destroying confidence or destroying relationships. Yeah, that was another piece of that. And then I started to hear you kind of talk about goals and almost disguising the excellence, in a sense, versus like hey, you need to be this good, you need to be doing this, you need to be running this fast. Of disguising, be running this fast, of disguising it into hey, what if you set a goal or work with them to? Hey, what goal would you like to set? Gamify it Sounds like you have had some success with that strategy to engage them and get them excited about it.
Speaker 1:I mean essentially when it comes to excellence, them and get them excited about. I mean essentially when it comes to excellence. And one of the things that I'm also hearing is really in disguising it, aka breaking it down right. So if you want someone to be able to run a four minute mile, you know that they need to be able to run a 400 at this, or you know. And again, over time. The other thing that I heard which is really interesting, I think is important is patience in getting to excellence. That that's another characteristic of someone trying to guide someone along the path that is going to preserve relationships and, potentially, confidence, if you have the patience to break it down and and disguise it and work through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I just you know you talk about relationships and I just see you know you have rare examples where the individual does like what they do. And I think Tiger's a good example, you know he, I think he did enjoy it, you know. And then you have other examples, like a Jakob Ingebrigtsen where they're in court against their father, right, you know those guys. You have their three brothers that have all broke four in the mile, which is the only time in human history that that's happened. But it was because and they'll admit, like they don't have elite physiology any more than anybody else They've been training like professionals since they were 12. And so you know that discussion we had earlier about pouring the mileage on and this, that and the other thing.
Speaker 2:Their dad did that, but he did it in a way where it's like get up, you're running this mileage, you're doing it this way, we're going to the track, you're doing these things and if you don't, there will be serious consequences. Now he has created kids that have a lot of confidence and bordering on cocky, but he could potentially go to jail for some of the things that he did to their their uh, youngest sister, and so it's like you know that that is another dimension of you know, is it worth it? But you see, some of those situations. I forget the guy that used to play quarterback for the raiders, uh, marinovich, todd marinovich, same thing. His dad was like you know and he rebelled in a massive, massive way.
Speaker 1:so, um, let's just more to talk.
Speaker 1:Let's spend a little time there yeah, I've got a seven-year-old that he's a seven-year-old. He likes to do stuff, but doesn't like to do stuff. And I'm like, hey, you want to go play golf? No, like, just come drive me around, be my Uber driver. Okay, I'll drive you to Uber driver. We bring us clubs. You want to play this hole? No, go through, don't pressure it. You know, like the hole, let's not go into it, let's just he wants to be out here. I want him to encourage love coming out here. So we did that, for no, I played nine holes and then he didn't want to come out and I'm like, yeah, you're going to come with me, you don't have to play, but you're coming. Nine holes, didn't want to play. And then finally, the other day I made him play nine holes. Um, this whole week, uh, I'm working all week. It's the summer and it's like look, you're not going to sit at home all day. I signed you up for basketball camp. I don't want to go to basketball camp. I don't want to do it.
Speaker 1:Basketball is his favorite thing, that he likes to do, but he's like it's not basketball season, I don't want to do basketball right now. The kid, when he gets there, he has fun. And so I think at certain ages, maybe it's in the younger ages talk to me about giving the kids a push or a nudge, because I think part of it is is when you start to get to a point of I'm not sure what it is with him and I wonder if it's fear that he feels like he's not going to be the best person out there, cause he's a little older for his age and there's a little bit of that in there, or if it's just stubbornness or it's laziness I don't really know what it is that's keeping him from wanting to just go out and have fun. And I'm trying to take this approach of like it's my youngest, so like my oldest, I was forcing, we got to do this, and every time he took a shot I'd be like okay, your elbow needs to go from here to here, and I was a lot more like. But this I'm just like, just come out and trying to get them interested in stuff, to where they find the love, because I think one of the things you're talking about is, let's say, they're in love with something. How far do I let them go down that hole? But then where is the point of getting them enough experiences and pushing them enough to get them into something. You know, this just happened yesterday. I think a huge part of this is community. It doesn't necessarily directly answer exactly your question here, but I think community is huge for a couple of reasons. One community sets the bar. You become the five people you spend the most time around and for people that have an interest socially or you can tap into that part of them, it also drives the motivation to be out there. So I've been thinking about this.
Speaker 1:Noah, it's golf season and he's just getting off of basketball season. He's still kind of hype on basketball and the Pacers or been on a great run and golf is kind of slowly getting to where it needs to be. We played in US kids' tournaments all spring and albeit that's some of the best competition in the state. He finished dead last in most of the tournaments and I just didn't see that hunger coming out of those tournaments to, like you know, I didn't see that dissatisfaction that I would have hoped that he would be like. You know, here are the things that I've got to work on because I've got to come back in the fall in these tournaments, to do better on because I've got to come back in the fall in these tournaments to do better.
Speaker 1:Yesterday he went out to the course. He had an 11.15 to 12.45 training session with a group training academy kind of thing over at the course across the street. He goes over at 10, does some warmup and whatever runs into a couple of kids, sawyer and River, who he plays with and played with in the middle school team earlier this year, gets done at one o'clock. So he's been over there for three hours, comes back, says you know, they all agree, they're going to go home for an hour and they're going to meet back up at two. So he goes back out there at two, they hit the range for a little bit and they tee off at three and we don't hear from him and he calls us seven o'clock and he's like can we play 18 more? And I'm like good luck, it's seven o'clock, you're not going to get 18 in, but you know, go ahead. Going to get 18 in, but you know go ahead. He came in at 915 last night after playing another nine holes.
Speaker 1:These guys, first of all, are good players. A couple of seventh graders and just even over the course of the day you saw his. Clearly he was, I think, locking in. But then this morning he goes to, he's got a golf tournament down, so he gets in 9.15, eats, goes to bed at 9.45, gets up at 7.45. This morning it's a golf tournament, greensburg, 18 holes, tees off 10.24. This buddy texts me and says, hey, I'm teeing off at 4.45 at Bridgewater. Does Noah want to play? And so I'm like, well, I'm doing the math. And I'm like, okay, well, I'll text Noah's with his grandpa. I text grandpa, I said, ask Noah. Noah's like, yeah, I'm in. Tell him I may be a couple. I may have to pick him up on hole two or three because we may not be home till five o'clock. But I've seen with community. But I've seen with community his interest and engagement, and not only playing and being out there, but the level at which he's striving to perform to keep up with them, has made a huge shift, albeit it's short term at this point.
Speaker 2:I've seen that too in a couple different ways. Our unicorn, our buddy, dan's, dan's oldest, trey, is starting to have that happen. He's having kids come over to the track with him, and trey was one of those. It was very similar to what you're saying with isaiah, where it's like I don't want to go. I, you know, all off season, hey, let's go train, let's go train. Now you know he's got this group of friends and he's inviting them to the track and you know the the day after school, the day after track was over, they set up their own track meet where they all did every event and they were, you know, um, I think, and and they use that community and they're they've been much more active and will obviously perform much better going to cross-country season. You know, I think with the little kids and I see this with miles it's it is really tough because they want to do what their friends are doing. You know he wants to play baseball he's never picked up a baseball in his life because or he wants to play football, because this friend's doing that and this friend's doing that, and it can be very prohibitive where we live because you know the sport that they may have showed the most passion for early typically takes up so much time. You can't play five hours of soccer a week and also fit in baseball and also fit in football, you know. But, and the other thing that I've noticed too is and he's Miles is very sensitive to that, you know, if he feels like he said it last night in bed, he's like no, no, you know, my soccer team hates me and you can be there watching and know that they don't, and he may just be kind of looking for attention. But helping foster those relationships does help, you know, because I think that's the biggest draw until you're probably 13 or 14 is what your friends are doing, and when it comes to I've had luck, you know, laying on the force early and then, uh, highlighting the things that you know are exciting to them.
Speaker 2:We struggled a lot towards the end of the last year with Miles and soccer and I found part of the reason was he is at the age where he doesn't know how to channel his emotion yet. So if he loses if we lose, okay, not next time you internalize that and you either work harder or you'll figure out a way to get to that next level where he just cries. And so you know, and that becomes cyclical. He doesn't do well, he cries. What are you doing? Crying out there. This is ridiculous. You know why you're not doing good, you're not trying, and then it just goes lower and lower and lower. And then you step back and you're like wait, you know why is? Why is this happening?
Speaker 2:And you talk to one of the coaches and like, well, this is the tough time of year because for those kids, they're playing four and a half hours of soccer a week, with just practice, and they have no games for like three months, and that's what they all enjoy. And so it's already, you know, really monotonous, not boring, because they don't get to play and they don't get to test themselves against other teams. And then, as a parent here, I am not recognizing that it's already tough to get through. You know you're also going and playing and freezing. You know indoor facilities, and then I'm layering on. You know you need to do better.
Speaker 2:And once you've spent the time and thought to recognize that, oh okay, well, let's maybe be a little bit more positive. Dad used to always tell us with you guys growing up you and Keith Johnson he would have to approach you, he could lay into you at 12 and you would respond If he did that to him, he'd shut down, and so I think it's figuring out all right. You know, let's start and let's establish some consistency and then in that first week or first two weeks, can we identify what things are driving them or could potentially drive them to maybe be excited about it, and then highlight those things and focus on those things until there is more intrinsic motivation there.
Speaker 1:How do you handle because I know your kids do more screen time I find that for us, the alternative activity choices even if they're not, even if it's not a direct option at that time, their context for enjoyment and the amount of effort they need to put forward to enjoy something, when that gets out of calibration, I find that that's a pain point for us. I mean, we're just getting out of school year and I have had to completely get rid of screens because it's like we're in one of those phases where that's the context for enjoyment and entertainment and there's really very little effort that needs to put into that. So I had to completely clean the table and for like two days it was a disaster, as usual. And then there's a switch that has seemed to flip where it's just like okay, well, I guess I can't play screens. So there's a willingness to do. Do you guys find issue or challenge in that the alternative and or distractions are impacting their decisions making Thousand percent? We just I'll give you some interesting stories we just rebooted the whole household. So our policy I've talked about this before is all the kids have like two hours a day on their phone and that was kind of the way we controlled stuff no video games during the week but the hard one to control was television and series. And one of my daughters is big into anime and she'd spend four hours a night watching anime.
Speaker 1:And I sat down and I said, guys, this summer is going to be different. There's going to be no screen time and everything has to be earned. Based on the potty chart that I bought off Amazon, I mean, I got six kitty. I wish I would have brought one. They look like potty charts and you put a sticker. You know you got your four things that you have to do that day, like potty charts. And you put a sticker you know you got your four things that you have to do that day. There's chores, there's physical fitness For my daughter that's. You know, singing and piano are a couple of hers and you get a sticker and there's chores and there's structure and you have to earn time.
Speaker 1:And when I sat down all my kids what I found was my oldest son cracked his password on his phone and had been spending 10 hours a day on his phone for the last several weeks of school, as well as prior to that. He has like unlimited Spotify so we could listen to music? Well, you can like watch movies through Spotify. Now, how many digits is that password? Well, it's four, and it was one of the ones we used in the past, because we use, like certain things. So he clearly had been working on it a while. Roman's very good at that, so he's found ways to circumvent that.
Speaker 1:And what was interesting is, when I laid this down, I thought he was going to be the one that was the most upset about it, and he actually surprised me and he said I'm not fighting this because I know this is good for me and my other daughter that was just beside herself. Roman spent an hour and a half talking to her about where this leads, because, as a parent, when Roman was growing up, I struggled with making him. I didn't want to upset him. I didn't want him to feel uncomfortable. I didn't want to upset him. I didn't want him to feel uncomfortable. I didn't want to like take something away that he loved, and I had too much freedom around letting him spend time there.
Speaker 1:And Eden is in that same path right now and it's like no, and Roman's like trust me, you're not going to like what they're doing, but it's for your own betterment. Like, don't don't spend four hours a day on anime and two hours on your phone playing Roblox Like this doesn't end well. And to see him support and encourage and nurture his younger sister, who he sees going down a similar path, because he's come out of it and he's realized that like, yeah, this doesn't help build confidence or connection or communication or and it's given me even more confidence Even this happened after I already had made the decision. But as a parent, it's like no, this is right, and I'm watching my youngest to your point very closely of like I never really had to fight Hadley on anything, cause she's she's kind of just motivated and she's not drawn to that stuff. If anything, she reads too many books. She likes to read books, not watch television. But Isaiah, in lieu of doing a sport, he needs to know that there's not a screen waiting for him, right? Because if he feels like a screen is there, then he will take that as an out. So, completely removing that and removing television, which was harder.
Speaker 1:And this week, which is really interesting, my wife's been gone and we started this on Sunday. The summer's here, it's unbelievable. My kids did all the laundry yesterday, including mine and Roman's, because we're at work this week. The house is spotless, like the amount of things and the responsibility, and the one leading the whole thing is Eden. Like she's doing the chores the night before to get things done and just giving her some structure. And if she gets 25 of 28 stars for the week, I am going to let her sit down and veg out on anime for four hours once a week. If you do all your things she's driven like I've never seen. But I provided that structure. And the same with Hadley and Isaiah he's seven, so it's a little tougher. But the same with Roman. Like I'm seeing, with a little bit of structure and a little bit of care, at the end it's working out. But I can tell you I learned that by failure. I did it wrong the first time with the first child, but I think there is something to that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, we've got. You know, our kids are probably similar on screen time. I do see with miles specifically, if he has spent a lot of time in front of the TV or on screens, that he doesn't want to do things. You know, if he's been watching TV and it's like all right, it's time to go to practice, I don't want to go If he's been doing other things. He's like ready to roll and excited about it. So I've definitely seen that.
Speaker 2:But one thing that I also do on top of it is those activities don't get any positive reactions from me. No, dad, come look at this. No, I don't care what reel you have. They don't have Instagram, right, but I don't care about this YouTube short or I don't care about. So the positive reinforcement for me comes when they make the right decision. I could definitely see some benefit and that's maybe something I'll explore from a structure standpoint, because we struggle with that tremendously and it goes back to some of the prior stuff we've talked about in podcasts just doing hard things. It is not easy to go on Amazon, buy those things, build the program out and lay the foundation for them to. That seems overwhelming just thinking about it. But I definitely do see screens affecting the desire, I think the desire to go do things, I think, one of the unique things for us.
Speaker 2:Again, neither of you have it. You're way out in the middle of nowhere and you have a small neighborhood there is. We live in a neighborhood that has 300 homes and so there are always things going on outside. Right before I left, miles got invited over to a friend's house to swim and play with all of his buddies, you know, and most of his friends have, you know, like yards similar to your Marion yard, and they go and they, you know, like the Bruns is growing up, they're on four-wheelers or they're swimming or they're shooting bows and arrows. So we have that luxury because we have so many kids around us. You know, the girls are always out on the trampoline or at somebody's house doing this, that and the other thing. So the community aspect for us is a little bit easier because we live in a big neighborhood. But yeah, I can definitely see from a screen perspective. It does change their desire to go out and do things, especially when they've spent three or four hours between TV and phone.
Speaker 1:I wonder the community thing that you had brought up like building those. So one thing that my oldest daughter has become part of is there was a group of parents that their daughters, they were all into soccer and the parents built it. Five or six families came together and like let's build this dynasty, or we're all interested in soccer. Let's like pull them together and build something special and it has, it's been special. I'm in a smaller town, so maybe different than where you guys are at. But like finding the parents and building something from when they're maybe eight, nine, 10, starting in that era, and getting them on a golf team where it's it's about individual performance, it's not me versus you. And then getting the kids not to spend all their time Like I'm better than you one-on-one but no. Like hey, if we're going to play golf at X school, we need five good golfers, right, like they, you know, getting them and building teams and where they encourage each other and they want to go out and they want to play more golf. Like if if row came home and was like I'm going to play 18 holes and then even play nine holes more, I'd probably pass out, right. But like where, how are those curated? Is it from the parents? Is it from the sports systems? Like, how do you guys see that in your in, in your market, or is it just just luck? Yeah, I mean, I think it's being opportunistic and I think some of it is is luck. I mean, certainly I think you can. You can make your own luck if you go out of your way far enough, like we kind of stumbled into it, but there were some intentional things that happened. You know, I did some research. So this is, I mean, noah's been playing golf for four years and this is the first time he's had real community in this. So I think sometimes it takes time. If I wasn't wanting to play chances are he wasn't wanting to play outside of a few times where we put some fun gamified programs together for him. But I had reached out a couple years ago, got him involved in a training academy the one he's doing this year at the course near Bias, and he started to engage with some of the other kids there, played a couple of times with some of the other kids, but because he did that for two years, that's what got him the invite to the middle school team this past year or this past spring, which is then what. And then even then that didn't trigger it until he got back into the Academy thing. This year I signed him up for that again and that's kind of it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's a compounding effect of trying to get them, engage them and put them in opportunities and situations where they're going to be interacting with others and at some point there's a straw that breaks the camel's back, that it becomes enough. And for Oliver it's soccer. I mean it's an Indy 11 program, wrestling yeah well, wrestling that's a whole different animal. There's just some natural talent or disposition that's carrying him there.
Speaker 1:But his interest in soccer is a lot community-based and they're all talking about, you know, they're trying out for a couple of different programs and kind of running together in packs. They had kind of a team-building thing at a pool the other night. So there's relationships, I think that form on some of those teams and then some of it is I hate to say it, but some of it can is, I mean, in that regard, some of it's bought right, like you can buy community through some of those programs or in some cases, academically like or otherwise. That's why I think, think my opinion, those that do private schooling, that's one of the more substantial benefits is you're you're buying, in some cases, a level of competition, in particular that that could potentially be heightened. Um, you know, relative and and yeah, I, I think it. It's not easy, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you do. I think you're right there. Like I see it with these kids, I think that we're wired, probably from an evolutionary perspective, to seek out those that are on the same playing field or a higher playing field than we are, because that would have led to survival in the past and I see, seems natural almost. I mean, maybe kids are pulling it from us, but there's like there's this tension between between kids if they're on like considerably different performance levels or if somebody isn't putting the effort forward they don't want to uh, you know, engage with that person or associate with that particular person in the heat of battle, if you will. So like you, a lot of times being put in these situations where there is at least some type of a floor or a tier that everybody operates above creates an environment where they're more likely to develop those friendships, relationships and then communities going forward.
Speaker 2:I mean, you see it in the running side of it too. You know a K wants to run, typically with people that are at a particular level, just because you know I think they want to be around. Somebody that understands what they're going through is putting forth the same amount of effort that they're going through. So I think part of that is what you said. I've seen Miles kind of react negatively to you. Try to teach your kids to respect everybody the same way. You don't know, they may be putting forth all the effort that they have and they just may not have the skill set yet. So you don't want to judge people like that, but it's just weird that naturally they have disdain for those that don't necessarily do what they. You know.
Speaker 1:I guess either love it and or put forth the efforts that they put forth the one thing we haven't talked about is, like one of the the topic is killing confidence. So what are the primary ways that we, as parents, kill confidence, like in your guys' mind? I think telling, telling them they're doing it wrong is, is a and, and particularly how we deliver that message, seems, is what comes top of mind to me. Can you guys think of any? I mean comparison jumps out to me, comparing them with the kid next to them or someone else.
Speaker 1:And you had brought that up but like, can you think of a time where you clearly, maybe after you said it or thought it where you like, went in and kind of gutted them out accidentally through a conversation, all the time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I've done it with miles, especially when you see the capability, I think that's what? Because maybe it's living vicariously. You know, like I never had a natural skill level when it came to soccer and I equate Miles to the drunken master, like his footwork is phenomenal for his age but he doesn't put any effort or energy behind it and so he's kind of just like you watch him out there and he'll shake somebody up, but it's not like you see the kids that are very matter of fact, they'll cut this way and then they'll roll the ball back and then they're very like is kind of just fluid and just very fluid with it.
Speaker 2:So he has it, but he doesn't. Bruce lee well, and, and you know so I've found with him he's kind of like the keith johnson where you need to. It's extrinsic motivation and it's focusing on the positive. Um, great example two weeks ago. He's running his 800 At the track meet and he runs his first lap and he's he's coming around the first hundred of the second lap and he starts to walk and I just naturally like and I even apologized to another one of the coaches because I Didn't know if they heard me, but I saw him walking, I said no walking and it was like really it wasn't like hey, buddy, let's go, don't walk, was no walking and he's crying. And then he, you know. So that was a moment where I'm like okay, this isn't working. Well, yesterday we're at track and they're running ladder intervals One, two, four, two, one.
Speaker 2:So for those of you that don't know, it's 100 meters, 200 meters, 400 meters, 200 meters, 100 meters, with rest in between, and he goes out for the hundred and there are 13 kids in his group and he's 12th and normal me would be like like come on, dude, you know there are people here. I've watched you run against that like they're. You know, come on and the 200 happens, same thing. And I'm getting like angry, like I don't. You're not, we've talked, you don't have the most elite physiology, so I don't expect you to win these. But, dude. So I go up to him and I said and I don't know if this is good or bad, but I said, if you do not finish top five in the 400, you are not getting the soccer jersey that they we just we'd found some jerseys for them we ordered. I'm like you're not getting it.
Speaker 2:So he goes out, finishes fifth in the 400, and then the two of the next 200 is coming up and I'm like, if you don't finish fourth, he's like no, he goes dad, what do I need to finish to get my jersey on this one? I said fourth. And you know how kids are right, they get to fourth and they look to see if anybody's behind them and gets right to fourth, and then the hundred comes up and we're not a sprinting family by any stretch of the imagination. The hundred comes up. He's like dad, what do I need to do? I said I need you to run as hard as you can and I need you to try to get first, he runs a 19 second hundred beats. Try to get first, he runs a 19-second 100. Beats everybody. So then it's okay focusing on dude. That was great and this is the kind of effort we're talking about.
Speaker 1:What if he wouldn't have achieved that goal of fifth in the 400 and he would have failed and would you have not given him the jersey?
Speaker 2:High potential.
Speaker 2:And I'm just saying because, like I'm looking, for balance I'm looking for the right at that age the motivation is almost all extrinsic, like when k, when she was that age or seven or whatever. Remember watching eric garren? Uh, when she blew the doors off of everybody on her team and that was the promise of going to that harry potter experience up in chicago, and she told me. She said that I was thinking of harry potter the whole time, and so, like, six, seven, eight, extrinsic motivation is huge there and, um, so it's. But it's balancing that, because you don't want the entirety of their career to be driven by extrinsic motivation, whether that's a medal, whether that's whatever. So it's like finding the balance there.
Speaker 2:But, like you know, now that he's seen what he can do, it's like, okay, let's go back to the well and let's see if, reinforcing that good behavior and really right now it's 50, 50. Sometimes I'll go back and reinforce the good behavior and it'll happen again, sometimes it won't. So it's like, okay, well, what do we do now to get him to realize that he does have more capability? Because if he applied the effort that he applied during that 100 meters to his soccer games, he would be the best sixth grader in the state, or six-year-old, and not that that matters. But you know, and so it's like all right, you know, let's go back and forth and figure out the balance here and how to motivate them that way and how to help them see their potential.
Speaker 1:That gets to the heart of it. For one of the things that I've kind of leaned on that I feel like is an important foundation is I think they have to know that you are on their team. If they know that you're on their team, I think that changes a lot. If they truly believe and feel that you are looking out for what's best for them, then I think they are able to receive a little more criticism in a better fashion. And I spend a lot of time, more than I would like, explaining why. It would be a lot easier for me to just let them play screens all day and just burn their brains out, fry and rot their brain doing that than me having to manage all this stuff and put all the structure in place and that sort of thing. But to TJ's point, one of my uh, this was probably four weeks ago I had caddied for Noah and four straight tournament and, mind you, these are seven hour days. Okay, I got, I pride myself in having a lot going on and um, I my Sundays are basically shot during us kids Cause I caddy for him, which is great. It's a great experience and opportunity to kind of turn the tables a little bit, but we usually go out. He likes to go out an hour early, so we're leaving the house probably 90 minutes early. It's a five hour round and we're probably there for 30 minutes plus a 30 minute drive home. So every bit of a full day. And he finished dead last, the fourth time in a row. This I mean by several shots. And I had the conversation on the way home and I was just like dude, I don't know what to tell you. I said, but and I tried just to preface it and say as long as you go out and you give your absolute best effort, I'm going to support you 100% and I will be on your team team and I will be behind you. But this is getting difficult. I expect you to put forth a considerable amount of effort over the course of the summer to get to where you need to be, or I'm not going to caddy for you in the fall, because it's not just effort that day You're. So now you're equating it to training of like. No, you need to put in this much effort throughout the summer to get good enough to where you're. You're competing If, if, yeah, and if you want me to put in eight hour days on Sundays, I will do that, but you need to be putting in the work. If you want to play golf leisurely, okay. But If you want to play golf leisurely, okay. But if you want to play golf competitively, like, this is what I expect.
Speaker 1:And there was a point in that conversation where I was kind of early on, just like I don't know what to tell you, like he's continuing to blade irons, like and this is like weeks into this, and I was like and he, I knew I had gone a little far. When he's like should I quit golf? And I'm like, oh yeah, uh, no, you shouldn't quit golf. Which is what? Where, where I kind of came through of, I'll support you. I don't care if you're finishing dead last or whatnot, if you're putting forth the effort.
Speaker 1:But I don't feel like the hunger is there to be more competitive and sometimes they need that nudge. Like there was a point where I did the same thing in basketball which was really hard. It was about a year and a half ago, yeah, and I said, look, you basically have till the end of the year. We're spending a considerable amount of money on basketball training and other resources and tools for you to get better and you need to hit a certain level, like you've got to turn a corner and be competitive in these games, or I'm going to pull the plug on the excessive training, not like pull the plug on your ability to play basketball but he's getting some unique opportunities that a lot of resources are going into and if he's not in a headspace to capitalize on those and lo and behold, like you said, there's been several of these situations where a conversation like that has triggered this hidden level of intensity and capability that all of a sudden comes out of nowhere, and so it's really difficult to try and mine that out of these kids without you know piercing. You know piercing.
Speaker 1:I mean I see someone, I just see someone with a pickaxe, like mining a sculpture of sorts and just trying to like, not do any permanent damage but also challenge them. I mean, look at Tiger Woods. So here's a guy whose dad pulled every ounce of probably talent and disposition or whatever out of him, but he did it in a very toxic way. Clearly position or whatever out of him, but he did it in a very toxic way. Clearly, tiger's not known for being the most well-rounded person from a mental health perspective, so there was permanent damage done in that process and that's the whole balance, I think is part of it, whether it's destroying confidence or creating other toxic mental issues.
Speaker 1:How do you mine some of those skills without doing the damage? Ultimately, I think the fear is they walk away feeling I'm not good enough or I'm not gifted enough, or whatever. That may be right. That if they lose self-confidence which I think is one of the most powerful things for a kid or for an adult is having self-confidence If they lose that, you know, the fear is is that they're going to carry that into every area of their life. On the flip side, if they gain that, they're only going to gain it through that competitive. I've always struggled finding that balance of encouragement and comparison and potential and like hey, your potential's here, do you want to go there? Um, we've had that conversation and what does it look like to actually go there? Um?
Speaker 2:I think you, I think you have to, you have to mine it at all costs, because the other side of this is probably what is wrong with society today is the false confidence, the oh, it's okay, you know, oh, you're, you're like, you're great at this, but you're not. You know, and and that, and, and. That's to the benefit of society, recognizing what you're good at, and whether you want to be the type of person that's working on your weaknesses or the type of person that gravitates towards and improves your strengths to make you a better person.
Speaker 1:What age are you doing that at? Because you're not having those conversations with Miles at six.
Speaker 2:No, no, I mean, I'm not telling him that he's You're trying to mine it at six.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying to like figure out, okay, help him recognize his capability and then utilize things that a six year old mind gravitates towards to get him in that mind state more often, but at the same time, um, yeah, no, I mean I'm not. I'm not like you know, but I'm not telling I'm not like you know, but I'm not telling him he's good at stuff that he's not when he goes out there, and I know it's not his best effort, there's no reward for that. But I'm also trying to look at it and say, okay, don't get angry, don't like rip on him for it. Let's figure out some ways that you can like. One of the things I think I mentioned in prior podcasts is you let them decompress, because if you go and you have a bad game or you have a bad race, and then somebody's in your face like the second I finish a race and they're like dude, if you would have went out, you know, 10 seconds per mile slower. I don't want to hear that. Give me a second to process it myself and then let's go.
Speaker 2:Let's say, okay, what did you know? I asked him the other day. I said what did you like about today? And Miles is a kid. That is very hard on himself and I don't know again if he does it for attention or if it's just part of his personality, but I sucked. It's typically what you know, unless he had a really good day, I'm trash or whatever, and so you know, you recognize that reaction to things and you know, okay, I have to counterbalance that through some positivity and saying, hey, you know this was done well, but what do we need to? And then what do we need to work on?
Speaker 2:And then one of the other things I've done with the kid that age is simplified. The message, like you were saying with Roman elbow, like it's, it's our dad trying to teach somebody how to golf. Your head's going to explode because there's 75 things he wants you to do in your backswing to get it right For miles. It is one thing I tell him every game effort, effort. If something doesn't go the way he wants it to go, I don't say anything other than hey, buddy, come on, effort, effort, effort, effort. Because especially at that age, for most sports, if you have a baseline of skill, effort makes the difference. And so that is a big thing for me with him in terms of mining that out of him, but the worst thing for me would be, like you know, I had that conversation with Kaylin the other day.
Speaker 2:She had to do her workout. She had soccer practice yesterday, so she missed track. So we had to do her workout in the morning and she came across. She did, coincidentally, the ladder workout Miles did she had to do, but a little bit more intense, and she was off on her 600s. She was a few seconds slow, you know, and so I know she's super hot on herself as well. So it's like, hey, we're about four to five seconds slow.
Speaker 2:And, first thing, I hate running. This is stupid. She nailed every other. Her two was not nails, four nails, eight nails but her first and second 600s were off. I hate it. And instead of doubling down and ruining her confidence and making her mad, it was like, look, we were off. It's cool, you're still going to get the same adaptation. It's not the end of the world, let's just focus on right. So it's a little bit more. I'm being a little bit more intricate with her in the verbiage and the way I'm communicating with her, but it's like we just need to work on finding that pace and trying to extend it out and hold it a little bit longer, as opposed to like you are trash, you know yada. So we're still mining that and trying to figure that out. So you know, once the workout was done, there were some areas I can work on, but ultimately I have confidence because I did accomplish the whole of it and so you know it's.
Speaker 1:It's that knowing that there's that constant self-work still out there, I think you hit on something that's monstrous, that kind of crystallized this whole conversation, which is focusing on effort and not outcomes. I think that is. If I had to take away one thing from this discussion so far is how to instill excellence without destroying confidence. It's focusing on effort, and this goes as far to the questions you ask. What's the first question you ask someone after a soccer game or a basketball game? Naturally, how?
Speaker 2:many goals do you?
Speaker 1:score? How many points do you score? How many goals do you score? This is something I have tried to work really hard at is asking did you try your best? Did you try your best? And if you could focus on effort either in the game or in between the games, and you are doing your absolute best and you're harping on them to put forth the effort, I don't think anyone loses confidence based on the amount of effort that they're not putting forth. They know they're not putting forth the effort. I think people start to lose confidence in not being able to create certain outcomes, not being able to score enough goals, not being able to assist, not being able to you do whatever, and we've all got different gifts and talents, but I think that is monstrous. Focusing on effort, I think the other thing you pointed out too is important, which I am not good at, is waiting until after the heat of the moment. I love right in the heat of the moment. I just cannot sometimes hold back from making a comment.
Speaker 2:Remember that coach at Oliver's game with you and Jenna. You remember that? Yes, I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great, it was awesome. Would the? It was awesome. Uh, and that that is uh. Would the coach, the coach, come say something to you? No, I uh, in game, I'm actually I, I rare, I, I that was a unusual. Jenna is usually the one in games that does a lot.
Speaker 2:I got to go to a game recently and that was kind of it was it was. It was more, I think, directed towards her, but it was the situation was. So oliver had the ball, I think, on defense, and you know, one of the things that you're focusing on with kids at that age on defense is do not cross it in the middle like out out out, out and so jenna's like oliver outside, outside, outside, and I think she gave him maybe one.
Speaker 1:There were a couple other tips, yeah.
Speaker 2:And the coach on the other team goes hey, dynamo, do whatever you want.
Speaker 1:Just make the decision on your own, or something like that he said. It was really funny.
Speaker 2:And Nerd looks at me. He's like man, he got it. That was a good one, it was great.
Speaker 1:But I think after games is when I particularly something like golf that I'm involved in, or after, even in the heat of just a general debate or emotional situation at home where someone's upset at something. I want to have the conversation now. I don't want to wait for three or four hours. I'm not great with that sort of patience, but when I have it or when I revisit things after the fact, it makes all the difference.
Speaker 1:You know I'm generally on one or two fences. One I'm super passive, like the other day had was playing. They were playing at Hamilton Heights and I just thought she was flat and I just decided to let her have it right there on the field to get her motivated, because sometimes she responds well to that. I'm kind of like get your stuff together and start putting forth the effort. Like you kind of like get your stuff together and start putting forth the effort. Like you're playing like a chump and you know it and she knew it and it motivated her. Like so sometimes I can call it out of her, but I'm not saying directly like oh, you missed the shot of the pass. I'm like you get it together, like this is ridiculous. Like take this step in front of, like what are you doing? And sometimes they need that motivation on the field to fire them up, to get them to that energy level.
Speaker 1:What I seem to struggle with and it's a lot easier to visualize when it's not your kids playing is so many parents want to give that direction. They want to say or the kid misses a kick, oh man. Or they want to call the kid's name out. It's like geez, do you think he tried to miss the kick. Or like they want to call the kid's name out. It's like geez, do you think he tried to miss the kick? Or like they want to give specific instructions, or and. Or they want to be upset when a kid doesn't execute flawlessly. It's like do you know how hard it is moving that fast trying to make a pass or trying to make a move? Or, um, I think the parents in general, including me, and we want to give that like you, you jukeke someone, you've been sprinting the whole field and you go to cross it and you cross the end of the neck and you don't get it all the way through and you're like oh man, you know. And like, of course, the kid didn't try to do it. And how to help us, as parents, not be so focused on the outcome and to be focused on the effort. And I think one of the things that I took away so far today is I'm always focused on effort on the field, but very seldom do I say how is your effort in in between. But I mean, had are talking about this. It's like how good do you want to be? Like, are you willing to put in the summer and do 30 minutes of footwork watching these videos and do 30 minutes a day. The difference between doing 30 minutes a day and working on your core strength. When she got back from Coach G, I mean for two days, she was sore like abs, quads, all that stuff. And now she took some of those exercises.
Speaker 1:Like, if you want to, as a striker, part of what you need to be is explosive. You need to win the ball, but you also need to have good enough footwork to beat whoever you need to beat to A shoot or to B be pass, I don't care how many goals. Some days the goals are going to go in, someday they're not going to go in. But if you are able to win the one-on-one situations and put the ball in the box, your team is going to win and you're good. And as a striker or a winger, that is your job.
Speaker 1:How bad do you want it? How much time are you going to put into developing your body and your footwork? And that's kind of the things that I'm like. You know Roman, with high school golf, his potential is high. When he goes out and he gets a swing lesson from a college coach, he says he compresses the ball like a college player. He hits his driver 280, 290. When he hits it, how hard does he want to work at to start shooting in the 80s? Like, how much work do you want to put in, how much effort are you going to give this summer and is it important to you? I think that's. The thing I've struggled with is to making sports important to a couple of my kids who just don't find it to maybe be important or they just want to do something else.
Speaker 2:I I think just something has to be important well, I think that's one benefit of figuring it out younger, um, you know, unfortunately you had the uh, you were the one that had the kid. You know, that's, in term, related to our kids five years older than any of our kids, right, four or five years older. So you had to go through this first. I think one of the things that I'm seeing is implementing it as young as you can, mining it out as young as you can. I think that there becomes a respect for the long build. You know, I think you know, one of the things that probably happened when we were growing up, because there wasn't this sports structure that there is today, is, you know, as a kid, you want it all now. Yeah, I'll work for a summer, you know, or I'll work for a couple hours, or I'll work for a day, you know, and I don't know how long this is going to last, right, but I have a daughter who wants to be a pro runner. Okay, well then, you better build goals for the next 15 years, like you, better. You know, and having seen she's already gone through three cross country seasons and seen this precipitous drop, and the good thing about having a kid who's not elite physiology, who doesn't have elite physiology is that they're seeing these big gains every year, versus a kid who's a monster, who starts here and they just see this the rest of their career, you know, and maybe they can attach to it. Maybe they're not, but I think that's. That's a big, big win that comes from mining this early on. Is that okay, I've seen progress over three years and now saying, okay, you know, I guess being okay with I'll just use running again, a 10-second gain in a 3K per year, versus wanting to make these massive leaps and understanding that you're building and that helps too when you have conversations about you know, when a race doesn't go perfect, like we're building. You know you want to be a pro runner, okay, we're building for that.
Speaker 2:And again, I think it goes back to analyzing the situation. Knowing you finished dead last in these three tournaments. Well, you know, as long as you're putting in effort and you want to get better, who cares? If you're the best 12-year-old, now that may be a completely different story. If he's winning every tournament, it may be like dude, you're like, let's keep crushing this. You know you can be the best 13, 14, or whatever it is. But it's analyzing the situation, reacting accordingly and and I think that the if you can do it and it's hard, the younger they are, the harder it is to figure out how to get it out of them but if you can create the patience and I guess it goes back to the word grit right to be patient and okay with the 10-year plan, um, then I don't think you run into those issues later on down the line one of the things that we haven't talked about that I think is very relevant and is a hidden component of this, is the challenge skills balance.
Speaker 1:So the challenge skills balance is this concept that there's this sweet spot of a challenge for a kid that is challenging enough that it's intriguing, but not too challenging to where it's unattainable. And I guess that doesn't apply to just kids, it applies to adults and this is a thing in management and leadership and parenting and all the things. But it's really really fascinating because for different kids that sweet spot is at different levels, based on their capability and based on where they're at in their development.
Speaker 2:And their environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and their environment and their peers and all of that. And so when they see a certain challenge, their perception of that being in that sweet spot is something that I think could use. More intentionality, meaning making sure we're presenting kids with realistic goals and goals that are challenging enough. So for me to tell Noah you've got to figure out how to shoot in the 70s. When he's shooting in the low 90s, it doesn't make any sense right now. That's discouraging. That would be something that's discouraging and could chip away at his confidence. Now if I tell him probably not even you need to be shooting in the mid 80s, but we got to get you to a point where you're hitting 10 out of 14 fairways and he's hitting or nine out of 14 fairways and he's hitting five or six. That's digestible, right. There's that's in that sweet spot of okay, I can go from five or six to nine, and then we'll figure out how to go from nine to 11. But breaking that down into a point where it's it's also not you need to hit 7 and he just has a good day and hits 7 fairways, it's challenging enough.
Speaker 1:But I think there's a lot of times where, especially if someone's late in their career. Like Roman, it's probably tough to see the light at the end of the tunnel, depending on where he's at or where he's trying to go. For him, if the sweet spot of challenge skills balance is him shooting low hundreds to mid-90s, is that motivating for him and how does he attack that? But I've just found that challenge skills balance to come back and be right on the money time and time again. Well, the interesting part for where we're at and where our kids are is that bar is still attainable because a 95 won NCC this year. I heard that yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just incredible.
Speaker 1:So for him and he's tracking it tonight he's got a match is we're going to count putts, 20 putts, try to get under 20 putts on nine holes. That's an average of two. He's going to have some three whacks. He's been probably putting 25, 26 times. So this was funny. He would play and he went out and played his last match and his last couple matches and he he struck the ball very well and he shot a 55, hit the ball, well Putted, terrible. He had he'll have on nine holes. He was having you know two holes. He'd four putt Um and he was having all these you know four putts.
Speaker 1:We go out the other day, we play up at the lake. He does not hit a ball flush the entire time. We're out there. I mean every tee ball is in a different fairway. He's worm burning them across there. He can't, he.
Speaker 1:And he is so mad. But when he got to the green, if he was within, even if he was in the rough, if he was in three yards of the green, he brought his putter out. He two putted every single hole. He shot 56. And I said, and he was so mad at the run, I said now tell me this when you shot a 55 and you were four putting all over the place and you hit the ball. Well, you're pretty happy about that. Today You're furious. You shoot a 56 and you putt Well, why aren't you furious? Guy didn't hit the ball. Good, I'm like, do you understand? Every time you four putt it's like two or three whiffs. You know like so in his mind.
Speaker 1:If he ever has a good putting day and he strikes the ball, well, he'll shoot in the 40s, no problem, because he's capable of that. When he hits the ball, well, he's getting off the t250, 260 and the courses they're playing. He's coming in from 100, even if he misses the green 10 yards. His chipping's decent, his putting is atrocious. So we're focused to your point. We're like okay, 20 putts, but how do you put your kids to where they're competitive in their environment? And a 95 for noah in high school doesn't put them on the radar of any high school team. If you're not shooting par within a couple of par, you don't play down there, you play here. So the bars are different, but it doesn't really matter what the bar is, and Roman doesn't care if he shoots a 72 or 95. He just wants to go out there and feel like he's making progress, that he's got room for improvement and that he's playing competitively. And I think there's different levels of that depending on where you physically live. The training's better where you guys are for a lot of different sports.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because it seems like here the technology, the distractions or the commitment or the lack of structure in youth sports has deteriorated over time. The level of not only just Marion, but think about the whole NCC. This has got Muncie in there, this has got Kokomo in there, this has Lafayette in there, like, and the culmination of that, I don't know why it's gone from 70s to 90s and why, why that is, but getting your kids to work towards being good, in what environment they're in, realizing they're going to reach a peak. They're going to reach an area where it's going to be hard for them to compete, because even if Roman wins NCC, that means he'll probably do decent in sectionals. There are going to be golfers out there that are shooting in the 70s and at some point in time he'll run up into that and he won't be able to compete. But just seeing them have some success because some of it builds confidence and to be able to be competitive in the environment you're in.
Speaker 2:I think your ability to, as a parent, to reframe it on the fly, you know, maybe it becomes. You know how important it is in certain industries to have a good golf game, like as a salesperson or whatever, whatever, and like that that becomes the goal. Because I was looking at it the other day and I was kind of realizing then, like there is a chance that Kay might not be a great high school runner, she might be a five, she may be a one, but she may not be a great high school runner. But that doesn't mean it still doesn't mean she couldn't be a pro runner. It just it might take 22, 23, 24. She might be qualifying for the Olympic trials in the marathon. Again, if that's her long-term goal, reframing it and say, okay, you know what, she's not going to get here. Unless we put this kind of effort or strain on her body, she's not going to make it here, based on her personality, what she wants, and yada, yada, yada. To keep this enjoyable and to keep her looking forward and to keep the balance that you were talking about earlier in play, we've got to zoom out a little bit and kind of reframe the ultimate goal you want to get here. Fine, Then don't worry about here.
Speaker 2:The other day she goes out and she runs 558, her first meet of the year. Her second meet of the year, she runs 609 or something. Oh my, oh, my God, you went back. That could have been the reaction. You slid backwards. Are you kidding me? You've had extra training. Hey, it doesn't matter, you were within the realm.
Speaker 2:Guess what. These are basically training runs. Sure, they're races, but you want to be a pro runner. We don't need to worry about you losing Physiologically. Your body felt the same and is getting the same adaptations if you run 555. So it's like being able to reframe that on the fly, because you're right, you know, I don't. You're going to run up against situations and we do that all the time. There are two girls in her age group that she has no prayer. One of them is two minutes faster than she is in the 3k. We don't even talk about them when it comes to another race for her. And I think with Roman it's like look when NCC is like there's a goal. Don't put him in that predicament where it is completely unreachable.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean, I think the question for you, for Roman, is like how do you get him out there and what's the way, without destroying confidence, to get him out hitting eight out of ten ten foot putts on a practice screen every day before he, you know? And that that, I think, is the tricky part, is because you can get it. You can certainly you're going to get better if you play, but the trajectory of that will be a fraction of if you can find a way to master the individual skills in between. And that's where it's hard, especially if there's no community. Who else have?
Speaker 1:I don't know if he has friends that are, and at the lake there's nobody, but it's part of the things he's put on. His goal sheet is to he's either got to walk two miles or play a nine holes of golf, and he hates walking or run two miles. He hates running. So there's some motivation there. Um, he has a. He's gonna have a lesson a week and he already had a really good lesson with shout out to Graham at Tippie Lake Country Club, um, and it really helped him. So a little bit of instruction, playing three or four times a week, and I told him he's really close to like. It's like riding a bike to getting to that next level and that becomes kind of the benchmark. It's easier to get back there once you've played enough and he's still young enough and he's got a great swing. It's confidence, it's staying out of your head.
Speaker 1:Golf is a really tough one but to your point it is. It's like let's focus on putting right now. Some days you and I both know that it's very, very seldom do you get the putter and the irons and the driver all working on the same day. It's like lightning in a bottle. But there is ways to improve that and the mindset of that. He's fully capable of shooting in the 80s. It's just going to be putting in the work. Wanting of shooting in the 80s, it's just going to be putting in the work. Wanting to put in the work because you enjoy it, not because dad said you had to or because I'm making you do things.
Speaker 1:And I think that's where I've maybe struggled more than anything is finding the kids to fall in love with something. That it was interesting because Hadley said that it finally took me until this last like 12 months or so to where I know I really love soccer and I want to play it, and I don't think any of my other kids have that where they would sit down and say I really love this. So it was nice to hear Hadley say that and her wanting to work towards and achieve towards that. As a parent, you just want your kids to find that, whether it's singing or it's piano or it's choir or it's whatever band finding something that they are interested in. And then, once you find something they're interested in, there's a whole nother level of how to navigate that and help them grow in that.
Speaker 2:So there's kind of sounds like it's two twofold you know something I want to call out that I heard somebody say the other day I can't. It was on a podcast, but the comment was if you fight against this, everybody thinks they're the exception to the rule, even if the odds are stacked. If the actual odds are stacked completely against them, they always think they're an exception to the rule, meaning like, I guess in that same breath I saw another comment the other day that was there are no lucky races. You're not going to like hey, you're not going to just show up and run a five, 30 next week. It's just not. You know, you don't say that to them, but like you have to understand that most of these things, for the most part, there will be probably a couple seminal events in your career where you unlock something you know, where you find a different level of pain, tolerance in a sport or kind of what we talked about. I think it happens more younger than older, but, like Roman, there is a direct correlation here. You, you know you're not going to show up and shoot 75 tomorrow or 85 tomorrow without like and so like, reinforcing the direct and fight direct correlation and fighting against it, cause I feel like I felt that way growing up. That you know. You know you feel that way. Maybe you're sitting on the bench at basketball and, like man, at the cook, you know, like uncle Rico coach had just put me in, we'd one state cause you're envisioning, you know, hitting all these threes or being.
Speaker 2:But the reality of it is that doesn't come without the hard work and I think a lot of people think that, um, you know miles was saying that the other day again, it's more the imagination of kids. He's like dad, I said miles, I know your 800 time was 4 12 and we want to break that this week. We can do it like let's try to get under four, dad, what if I run three? Dad, what if I run two? Well, you'll be the fastest six-year-old in the history of the world. But that just doesn't happen. And you don't want to rain on a kid's parade because you want to keep that excitement and that wonder and that belief in oneself that you can get there. But how do you do that in a way that helps them realize over time like, yeah, you may be able to run a two-minute 800 one day, but it's not. You know, and I love that you have that dream. Let's connect the dots. So you realize that this is the way you get there.
Speaker 1:So funny. I was on the golf course with Grant yesterday and he hit like two good chips in a row and he goes Dad, I think I'm better than scotty. I'm like scotty, scheffler. He's like, yeah, he's like. And then he hit another one. He's like that's probably about the same as scotty.
Speaker 2:It ran like three feet by the hole, but it's just you gotta love that, that like that, and that's the dream, don't?
Speaker 1:have the context, but it's a beautiful thing at that point because they can be encouraging.
Speaker 2:And that's the confidence right.
Speaker 2:Like, how do you keep that confidence in themselves?
Speaker 2:And, like again, just over the years, you're constantly changing their perspective and picture and reframing it and keeping them in a place that so it just takes a lot of time and effort and evaluation and constant reinforcement that you're in their corner, and effort and evaluation and constant reinforcement that you're in their corner, but that, like you know, and I think, like you you did with potentially taking away your support, like through that conversation, there is no other way for you to get to where you want to get to other than getting in here putting out the work. And if you don't want to do it, that's fine, you don't have to, but I'm not spending my time doing it. You, you know, I mean hell, you set up. You know, I mean this there was, I know there was a lot of community around it and I don't want to, you know, but the stuff that you've done with CIFC and like, personally, you know, give Hadley an opportunity is off the charts and so it's like, yeah, I mean, I'm just I'm going to try and summarize this.
Speaker 1:There's a lot here, but they've started this with the question of how do we instill excellence in kids without destroying confidence. I mean, I think one of the things that we talked about there's kind of two aspects of this. One is, if you don't have to be the one providing the direction don't be if you can find a community that is naturally going to create the, create the standard of excellence or motivate the standard of excellence, or if there are other coaches or trainers we haven't explicitly said that, but we've all referenced it that can do that guidance and coaching and pull that out of them. I think that's probably the best case scenario. But there are going to be times where we have to provide that direction. I think in that case, focusing on effort is probably the top of the list. If you focus on effort, I think you can instill an excellence in effort, which is what's most important.
Speaker 1:I've talked about this before, but if a kid has a natural ability of five out of 10, and they put forth the effort to get that out of seven to 10, I'll take that all day. Then a kid that's an eight out of 10 and stays there, you know, with a moderate level of effort. So focusing on effort, you know, setting a foundation where they know you are on their team, I think will really help them perceive your messages as not telling them they suck, but that you're trying to help them achieve a different level of greatness. We talked about breaking down excellence and or disguising it into more manageable chunks, which I think kind of feeds right into that challenge skills ratio. Making sure you're putting goals and things in front of them that are digestible depending on your spiritual disposition, leveraging the honor God with the talents and gifts he's given you. We talked about managing alternatives that can a lot of times really erode at motivation to do some of that, anything that you guys would add.
Speaker 2:One thing that you said there um, when it comes to focusing on effort, especially the younger age, trying to figure out how to get the whatever it takes to get that maximum effort out of them once so they recognize it's there, because I think a lot of times that you know it's like finding that next threshold when it comes to running, like you think this hurts, you can hurt way more and if you, if you find it once, then you at least as a parent, know it's there and you can help them inch towards that. As you know, I think a lot of time not a lot of times, but you see it out there where, um, they never recognize that because it's like you know you're not in their body and so if you get extrinsically motivated or whatever, trying to figure out where that maximum effort is, because I think a lot of times, with the comforts of society today and the things that are constantly around us, you think that what's true effort and what their max effort is may be completely misaligned.
Speaker 1:The entire meter gets skewed To your point. It's like the do hard things for kids that we were talking about to help them gain that context. It's good. Well, I think Todd put a really good summary on it. Thank you, guys for tuning in and we look forward to seeing you next time.