The Dailey Edge Podcast
Join hosts Trent, TJ, and Todd Dailey as they explore the intersections of technology, culture, fitness, and personal growth. Through engaging discussions and personal anecdotes, the trio dives into topics ranging from childhood gaming nostalgia and cutting-edge fitness tech to the pursuit of happiness and lifestyle choices. Whether reminiscing about epic gaming marathons, sharing tips for staying on the forefront of fitness trends, or unraveling the complexities of modern life, The Dailey Edge delivers thoughtful insights, lively debates, and relatable stories for listeners of all walks of life.
The Dailey Edge Podcast
Episode 18: Navigating Business in a World of Rising Trade Barriers
Tariffs have become a complex economic battleground affecting businesses, consumers, and global trade relationships in ways that go beyond mainstream news coverage.
• How tariffs function when imposed on imported goods and the resulting cost impact on businesses
• Challenges of relocating manufacturing from China to other countries due to infrastructure and expertise gaps
• The spectrum of business responses: raising prices, eating margin costs, or finding alternative production locations
• Why electronic manufacturing jobs won't easily return to America despite high tariffs
• Outsourcing creates opportunities not just for cost savings but access to specialized global talent
• The unintended consequence of tariffs potentially stifling innovation in sectors like electric vehicles
• Different perspectives on outsourcing services versus manufacturing products
• The complex balance between nationalism and globalism in trade policy
• How economic pressures differ for small/medium businesses versus large corporations
• Questioning our obligation to country while operating in an increasingly global marketplace
Welcome to the Daily Edge, where we bring you the latest insights, opinions and thought-provoking conversations to give you that competitive edge in life, business and beyond. Let's go, welcome back to the Daily Edge. As usual, I'm here with my brothers TJ Daly and Todd Daly. Daily Edge as usual, I'm here with my brothers TJ Daly and Todd Daly, and today we are going to talk about tariffs. There's all kinds of information in the news.
Speaker 1:Obviously, president Trump has taken a pretty aggressive stance. Tariffs are on, tariffs are off. These are impacting businesses every single day. There's a lot of reasons for tariffs and there's a lot of different points of views like how should we approach it? Why are we doing it? Who is it hurting? Who is it impacting? So those are things I'd like to talk about today. I know in a couple of the different businesses you guys are involved in with some importation, you're probably being impacted. So I'm going to throw it to you and let one of you guys kind of kick it off with some of the things you're experiencing and then we'll go through and we'll talk about how these are impacting us particularly and then how they're going to impact the global market.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I'll start by first explaining tariffs. So I'm in the mobile accessory manufacturing space, as you know. Most of you out there know, or as you can imagine, the majority of products in mobile accessories just in wireless phones in general come from overseas and the majority of those come from China. We started dealing with tariffs years ago, during Trump's first term.
Speaker 2:Tariffs came into play and that was a very interesting thing to see unfold. For those that don't understand how tariffs work typically, you know the United States will apply tariffs against a country's imports and then, as the manufacturer or as the brand in the States, we pay those tariffs when we buy those products. So, with 124% tariff, if we buy a product for $10, we're paying 1240 in tariffs on top of what we're paying. So it increases our costs by almost double. What's interesting to understand and what has helped me develop perspective on this is what this does from a logistics perspective when it comes to trying to accomplish what Trump wants to accomplish. You know he has said over and over again that this is about bringing jobs back to America. Yes, it generates revenue, but the revenue it does generate is coming from companies like ours that do manufacture overseas. So what was really important for me to see unfold is when this happened the first time. It. Obviously we run very tight margins, as you can imagine, in the cell phone space it's extraordinarily competitive, and when this happened, what it did was it caused us to have to look at other areas of the world to manufacture our products, and so what we got to see firsthand was what type of time that takes. Of course, all of these other manufacturing locales were very aggressive, when the tariffs came six to seven years ago, about reaching out and saying, hey, manufacture your product here, manufacture your product here. And so we're like, ok, I think we can avoid these tariffs if we manufacture it and import it from here. Well, what we saw was, even though they were excited and ready to take advantage of that opportunity, what we didn't account for, and what they didn't account for, was the infrastructure that China has available to it now. So what is such a seamless process for us, especially because Todd and I visited there? There are areas of you know the manufacturing center that is Shenzhen and Dongguan and that part of China that are very, very specialized in certain things, and so they're very efficient and effective.
Speaker 2:So when we moved manufacturing years and years ago from China to Vietnam. There was a lot of pain and I think that speaks to and I know I'm rambling a little bit here, but I think that speaks to kind of how this could more broadly impact things. Sure, could it bring jobs back? Yeah, but developing that infrastructure Vietnam was a big move for us and it took three years. And they were willing. They have the population that wants to work for these particular wages in these particular conditions. But getting that infrastructure set up just to move things internally within Vietnam and moving raw materials from here to here and tools and things like that, so you know, I think it kind of speaks to, you know, the perspective that I've developed. Yes, I see the reasons to implement these, but I also see that if the ultimate goal is to bring jobs back here, number one, you have to have the population that wants to do it. And, number two, setting up that infrastructure is a monumental lift.
Speaker 3:Setting up that infrastructure is a monumental lift. Yeah, shout out to the late great Charlie Munger. I think I've probably quoted him here in the past, but it's complex Actually, it's very complex is the first thing that I would say and based on the industry and the reality of each and every company and product, the impact could be different. And so when a tariff and TG, you hit on some of those, but I'll just kind of cover some of the likely outcomes when a tariff's imposed and, like you said, the company is paying that, that's importing it, you have a few options. A, you raise your prices. You hear a lot of people talking about that right? Well, I'm just going to raise my price and pass it on to the consumer and then, basically, the American consumer starts to pay the tariff.
Speaker 3:And that's what I think we're all kind of concerned about in certain forms or fashions. Like you look at an iPhone and an iPhone that is $1,000 and there's 124% tariff, how much are we going to pay? One of the things I would call out that I think a lot of times we don't think about is even when you're looking at an iPhone that sells for a thousand dollars, that probably costs $50 to make. I'm going to guess. Maybe it's a hundred. And so my point is when we're talking about tariffs 120% tariff Apple might be paying a hundred or a couple hundred dollars instead of 50 or a hundred dollars for this iPhone. So they're really only losing $50 a margin.
Speaker 3:Now, depending on what their business model is and what their mindset is, are they trying to keep their margins the same, so they're going to price it at 2000,. You know from a percentage perspective, or they just want to make sure they're clearing? You know, $850 on this phone, or $900. So they're going to just increase it from $1,000 to $1,100. So when you're thinking about price increases, a lot of times the company can continue to maintain margins by just passing along the dollar amount increase that they're having to pay, which is, I think sometimes we think of retail prices so we're thinking, oh gosh, they've got to double the retail price to cover. That's not necessarily the case Now. In the case where there are situations where maybe they're very low margins and maybe the clientele will not pay, that's kind of the cap of what people are willing to pay for a certain product or service based on its value proposition, and that's where I think it comes into companies will consider going and manufacturing in other places where they can continue to be in business. Right, they could shut down their business if they don't feel like they want to eat it. Right? There are some cases where companies are eating the margin. Maybe they have enough Apple's willing to say, hey, I'm making $850 on an iPhone, I'm going to make $800 on an iPhone, I'm going to keep the price the same, that's okay. On an iPhone, I'm going to make $800 on an iPhone, I'm going to keep the price the same, that's okay. And then, when it comes to jobs and this is another threshold is at some point does it become cheaper and more effective to make it locally, which is what Trump's talked a lot about.
Speaker 3:Now, from my experience, at least in the electronic space, I think that there's a couple of things at play there. Not only is China a relatively inexpensive place to make it, they have also become the experts in a lot of ways. So when you think about making some of these electronic specific things in the US, it's not just making it here. I think in a lot of areas, us is known to have the intelligence and the high-end capability to do anything. I think there's still a lot that we have to learn and infrastructure that we don't have in place.
Speaker 3:That China does, even from a quality perspective, when it comes to some of these electronics, compared to perspective, um, when it comes to some of these electronics, compared to, um, I guess, compared to some of these other uh places where this can be manufactured.
Speaker 3:So I think that's something to consider.
Speaker 3:It's not just a price thing, even if you're saying, okay, yeah, we can make it here for 20% more right, where you got a 30% tariff, and so it's cheaper to make it here.
Speaker 3:There's also that other consideration that I would throw out. I would also say the gap in manufacturing cost states versus China is still very, very wide in a lot of areas. And again, this is where it depends on what industry you're in and I keep coming back to electronics because that's what I'm familiar with with the Eternize Cross. We do manufacture over there, and so I think, when I think about the cost that it would be to make here, relative to that, the tariff would have to be probably several hundred percent for even it to make sense from a cost perspective, let alone a quality perspective. So I think there's a lot of different ways this can play out, and you see each of those, I think, being leveraged by different sides of the political spectrum to talk about why this is such a dumb idea and why this is the best idea ever, but the reality is, I think it's very complex.
Speaker 1:You guys both have talked about price and talent, right and I. I was listening to the ceo of apple and they were talking about like china used to be the cheapest, now they're not, and that it's. It was to your point. It was a talent play, like the infrastructure. They're super good at it. There's a lot of other countries out there that arguably could do it cheaper probably not the us but it wouldn't have to be china china, us price might be here and china might be right here, but there's all these other countries that you know you guys went to vietnam and there's other countries that want to be developed and so forth and so on. So talk to me more about that, like, why so china being the experts, do you believe people are going to pay that second tier and not the bottom tier because of that expertise?
Speaker 2:Yes, and we deal with that regularly. So we manufacture in about probably five or six different countries and some of our retail partners have initiatives with specific countries. So there are larger agreements at hand where a massive retailer in the US will work with, potentially, a government of a particular country and say you know, we're really going to focus specifically on doing business here, you know, and helping you improve your or giving your workforce more opportunities, for whatever reason. We and I'm not going to call these countries out specifically, but we've experienced significant performance issues with our products, with manufacturing with those particular countries. I recently tested a product with them and it performed at probably 40% of what we typically would have seen from China. And again, I think it's cyclical, though right, it's a situation just like any business, where somebody figures it out and then somebody else wants to be more competitive, and this goes back to the whole logistics side of things. I don't think that any of these countries we can talk about, any country out there, and they all have brilliant people, whether that's here, whether that's Japan, china, india, korea like brilliant, brilliant people. So I think they would figure it out over time. It's just that consistent experience over time and we've seen things.
Speaker 2:When we first started working with Vietnam, there wasn't necessarily an even playing field from a quality perspective, but I feel comfortable now saying that we're probably there. Field from a quality perspective, but I feel comfortable now saying that we're probably there. Some of these companies that are headquartered in China have done a good job as it relates to getting ahead of it. So a lot of them have manufacturing in different countries and planted those seeds early on. We have one in particular that works out of the Philippines, and again, some of these countries are in relatively close proximity, so what makes it easier? But I don't think that consumers are willing to—there's kind of that watermark and I think in a lot of instances I don't think consumers are willing to dip below that. So, as it relates to that, I think what you're looking for is that sweet spot, and that sweet spot is kind of what China has right now as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 3:It'll be interesting to see how much of it just becomes at the end of the day becomes a little bit of a revenue play to close the gap. I forget what the numbers were, but I want to say it was 493 to 138 imports, exports with China. I'm assuming that's billions and certainly a tariff on that can be a meaningful amount of revenue. But I think that will be interesting to see how much is revenue and how much of it actually does create a shift in jobs. Now again we're talking a lot about electronics, but I believe I did see recently where maybe a car manufacturer had committed to invest a considerable amount of money in a manufacturing plant here in the United States. Shortly after that I'm trying to think of which one it was.
Speaker 3:So I think there are industries where the US is already competitive or closer to competitive, where a smaller tariff may have a more substantial impact and some of it's diversification, especially for these multinational businesses. I think generally what you find from a business perspective is you manufacture, sometimes in the locales where you're actually going to sell, to diversify the cost impact of having right. You can make in China, sell, sell in china. Some of that is currency exposure and different things like that. But um, I think there there are some industries I think car is one of them where there is a level of competitiveness based on, you know, the fact that we have manufactured cars here for a very long period of time and some of the highest in cars where I think that the uh, the, the uh tipping point comes sooner.
Speaker 1:Is it SoftBank? Was that who said they would? Was that one like they were in like $100 billion or something like that? Yeah, I'm not sure what it was. There's another.
Speaker 2:There's a number of different ones. I mean you have, I think, honda's building a plant in Indiana, somebody's building a plant in Indiana very, very soon. You know there've been some, one of the biggest they're out of taiwan semiconductor, right, they're. They're going to invest in the united states and they basically have monopoly on uh, the top performing semiconductors which are obviously used in a lot of these gpus and some of these other products, and that's kind of been a choke point for us.
Speaker 2:One thing that I think is really interesting, that I like your perspective on it. When I think through this logically and my logic may be completely flawed, so I'm not saying I'm perfect here what I see, if this actually works from a jobs perspective, I see a potential massive transfer of wealth. And why I say that is, you know, if you look at us when we were succeeding industrially and let's talk about cities that are actually relatively close to us, the Gary Indianas of the world which, by the way, we'll get back to that the Gary Indianas of the world, the South side of Chicago, detroit, all of these cities that have kind of decayed a little bit over time because industry has gone elsewhere, a lot of those particular industries thrived on jobs that required manual labor. And so what we have become as a society over the last call it 40 years? We've really started to generate revenue based off of intellectual property. We've become a technological powerhouse and we've outsourced all of those things. We've become a society heavily relying on electronics. I would be very interested to see what revenue that does versus some of these other industries, but anyways, so if we were to bring those jobs home, let's hypothetically say that we found a spot.
Speaker 2:Like you said, tariffs go up to 400%. It makes more sense to make that here. Well, I think what has happened over time is, as we become more technologically advanced, that money has been dumped into white-collar jobs, whether that's development, whether that's administration, whether that's whatever. If we manufacture here, that is going to have to change. So that wealth, maybe we see this disparity growing. Right, men, when we were younger and Bill Gates was worth a couple billion dollars, now guys are worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Again, it's not all necessarily liquid, but that money is going to have to start to disseminate out, to substantiate or to sustain these other industry or these other parts of the industry that we've outsourced at a very cheap rate. So, um, that is going to be interesting, because the people that are sitting at the top are going to have to you know, consciously make that decision. So I think that's um, something I'd love to kind of get your perspective on.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, you're just talking about if you're going to have to pay more in labor, right?
Speaker 1:Your labor costs are going to go up, profitability could go down. I think that's we spend a lot of time on the money side of it. But part of what I would be interested to get your take on is I think Trump's doing this from an economic standpoint and none of us are economists, let's just get that out there. But if we are importing way less than we're exporting and China I know what they're they're continuing to buy US treasuries and we're continuing to build on our debt, and so when you don't have a balanced trade system, you end up basically upside down, and I think that's been one of the things he's focusing on is China continues to buy more and more treasuries of the US and if they have higher taxes or tariffs on our products than we have on theirs, and it creates this imbalance, over time they start to own more and more of they don't own the us government, but you know what I'm saying? They're owning more and more. We keep printing money and so forth and so on.
Speaker 1:So I think part of what he's trying to do and I think short term is super painful. Right, because we have all these things that are real we're talking about right, people, jobs are impacted, cost of goods are being impacted. But the long term strategy is if we get a balance and I think it just came out, maybe yesterday, where you know, china and the US have agreed to drastically reduce tariffs across the board. I think China's are going to go to 10%, the US's are going to go to 30%, so it's still a little bit in that flavor. But to get a balanced approach from an economy standpoint, we need to be importing and exporting very similar amounts in order to. I think there's a sustainable part of the government that that comes into play and again, I don't know all the details to talk in very good detail about it, but I know that I think that's at play as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think that's it. If you look at the, we're exporting from China or importing, I should say, from China we're paying them. I think roughly, if the figures I read correctly, we're basically $500 billion a year to import stuff and they're paying us $130, a year to import stuff and they're paying us 130 billion a year, you know to. So obviously there's a over time depending on what your relationship is. I mean, there are obviously certain relationships where you're going to be upside down in and certain ones where you're not.
Speaker 3:But I think Trump is is trying to make a point that hey, this isn't a free lunch, right? Like we're not going to just continue to. I think you know at least he's played on this. I think, more broadly of we're not going to continue to buoy the entire world, you know, by, just out of the goodness of our hearts, continue to be in these lopsided trade situations indefinitely, and whether or not that's right I don't know. Whatever your political position is, I think it's debatable, but certainly that seems to be the stance that he is taking.
Speaker 1:We've talked a lot about products. One of the questions I have services, right, right, so people have been outsourcing services for quite some time. So you go to the any of the large companies, their call centers are overseas, so people are hiring. We have employees in the Philippines with a couple of the companies. Talk to me about that because right now I think that's not being talked about. It's really about manufacturing products where, um, we have individuals now that are part of our team that are working in different countries.
Speaker 1:Um, and I, honestly, if we got to there's two. There's two really good reasons behind it. I think everyone assumes cost right, the cost is a little bit less than what it would be here. But two, they're brilliant, like they're very hardworking, grateful employees, and we have found that there are certain tasks within our companies that were high turnover for us. We just couldn't keep people in those spots. They were maybe stepping stones right when, you know, this was a job that got someone to the next job where they would get burned out on it, where we found really strong teammates and team members from a different country that value that type of work. So we haven't talked about services at all. I'd love to get your guys' take on that.
Speaker 2:I mean I can talk a little bit just about I think you know you can. You've got more context on services in specific, but I think you make a good point and that goes back to do we want to do it, you know. You know I'm not talking about like any financial tax or or or tariff or anything on the service itself, but like that's a great point is, you have you have jobs that have been so high turnover that you know it's been extremely expensive because it costs so much to onboard a new employee. For you guys to do that and I think that's a big thing to think about is do we really want to do these things? You know this a lot in a lot of instances. This is we've talked so much about hard work and grit and suffering in prior podcasts. Is this something that people are? Are these things people are going to want to do? Like what's even the point? I mean, you know I remember in the probably early 2000s we have relatives that were in auto manufacturing and that worked in these factories, and one of these in particular I was living in Seattle.
Speaker 2:This is probably somewhere in the 2002, 2003 arena. This particular person had a job where they probably worked less than 10 hours a week. They serviced something within the factory that very rarely broke down. The only time they worked was when that broke down. This individual called me in his forties, hiding underneath his desk from his boss because he didn't want to work.
Speaker 2:And if you look at and I'm not shit talking because he didn't want to work and if you look at and I'm not shit talking unions, but if you look at a lot of the things that some of these unions implemented during those time periods, a lot of it was related, I mean, like the mandatory breaks and the certain number of hours a day, and then what happens when you retire and how much of your compensation do you continue to receive. It all kind of plays back to working less optimizing. And the thing about that is that, yes, as a society, technology has allowed us to become more efficient and if we look further down the path, maybe this does result in a UBI Again. What we've talked about in prior episodes but, like you know again, is do we want to do this and what is necessary going forward?
Speaker 3:You know, and some of that plays into too with the immigration, a lot of the illegal immigrants who are doing a lot of the work too that I think there's, you know, potentially I think there's some people hypothesizing about labor shortages for some of those jobs that people don't want to do. I think for me I always come back to I wonder what our obligation is. I think when you look at Trump, he's brought more of a nationalistic tone. It's been more about the prosperity of the United States tone, right, it's been more about the prosperity of the United States. And certainly, if you live in the United States and like there's a lot that there's a lot to like about that, just like you know, but there's also another side of it, and so I wonder, like, if anything, do businesses and or citizens have an obligation, right To being a, a, a business in the United States and yielding some of the benefits that come with that? What obligation do we have to sacrifice profitability or sacrifice some quality, potentially in some cases, but overall just inconvenience in business operations for the greaterment of the country? That, I think is really kind of what this comes down to. Because, trent, to your point, if you have people who are very hardworking, very smart people that happen to be in another country but are still human beings, very good people. What obligation should we have and do we have to people here? And obviously this hinges on people that are willing to do it. The reason we've gone down this path to your point is people really don't enjoy this.
Speaker 3:I remember when we originally had talked about having a couple of people from the Philippines to join our team, it was met with a lot of resistance and it was met with a lot of skepticism. Now, if I told our team that we were going to not partner with the Philippines, I promise you I would lose at least half, if not more, of my stateside service team. At least they would be beside themselves because that team does so many things. That allows our team here to focus on what they do really well, which is talk with clients, develop relationships, do that sort of thing. So it's really complicated, I will say.
Speaker 3:For me, those barriers break down when you actually travel there and meet these people. It's kind of like you know online, when it's really easy to say stuff, when you're behind a computer and you've got the cyber bullies that are making up accounts and doing all the things I think distance perpetuates misunderstanding and perpetuates kind of dysfunctional relationships. Having gone to the Philippines twice, having been in China twice, what is very apparent to me and this is just in the last two years, I've been to both of those places twice is that they are human beings just like us, who happen to be on the other side of the world. Now I still am curious about my societal obligation to the country I live in, because I do experience a lot of conveniences and a lot of great things to live in the US. So I want to be sensitive to those obligations. But having been there and traveled to these places and met these people good people like good, warm-hearted, nurturing, caring, smart people that could be offering significant value to businesses here I'm not sure what is and isn't okay.
Speaker 1:It's funny. There's a stigma, right? Sure, I know in one of the companies we just added someone from the Philippines and they immediately thought you're going to replace my job, you're going to replace me, versus we're going to add capacity. And when we first started adding employees at IMG, my thought was no, I want to hire as many jobs in this county, promote this county, and we still do and that's still a focus for us.
Speaker 1:But we're in a global economy now, like we're because of technology, because of our ability to bring all people together from all different walks of life, and what we found where we met with resistance when we brought that first one in several months ago, where we met with resistance when we brought that first one in several months ago once they get to see the fruits, they're doing things and hitting benchmarks and things that we've never hit before and they're like to your point. This is amazing, but I feel like a lot of times, outsourcing to another country is looked upon as the business leader or owner is doing that to make themselves more money. Why do you think that's tied together and why is that it shouldn't I mean if you were go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would just say I think historically that's been the driver and I think that's changing. But I think people are holding on to those perceptions. There's no hiding the fact that it's substantially cheaper to bring on labor from overseas, particularly undeveloped countries that have the skill sets and capabilities to do a certain job or task. So I'm not mad at the people for having those perceptions Because, again, I think in a large part that is why a lot of companies have. When you look at Fortune 500 companies who have call centers over there, it is very much a financial play. So not even historically, but even today I think a lot of it is financial. Not even historically, but even today I think a lot of it is financial. I do think, as some of these countries are developing, I think there's a lack of understanding and appreciation for how good the capability is of some of these team members.
Speaker 2:No, I was just going to say that you know, I think, the people that are throwing stones again. This goes back to something you said a couple of podcasts ago about finding out what, figuring out what you're good at or where your niche is, and doing just that. And if call centers, if the Philippines, have this figured out, if they have the technology for it, they have the people for it, they have the methods of engagement laid out and mapped out so that they're the most efficient they can be when they're dealing with service issues on the phone and they're turning through clients and they're making sure they're satisfied. Unless we want to do that.
Speaker 2:If you're going to throw stones at an owner because you think they're doing this for a financial play only a financial play, and again, like you said, maybe it was originally, but it's kind of phasing out then you do the job and you do it successfully. Now, luckily I wouldn't say luckily, but it is what it is. We have different countries that are in different stages of development and, while it may cost, you know I mean you've been to the Philippines I would love you to answer this question Do you feel and I'm sure you do, or you wouldn't do business with them, that the people you've met for where they live are paid a wage that allows them to survive in a particular manner there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. The cost of living there is much different and financially, the wages they get paid are proportionate and they obviously and I say proportionate to the standard of living in that particular society. And there are different aspects of what's interesting in China and the Philippines. It's different because service is so cheap. You'll find different services. They have people that still pump your gas at the gas station. Nobody wants to do that here.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of times we say we want jobs here, but we want them at our rates. Right, we want them at the hourly wage that we want, as opposed to actually truly wanting the job at the rate it's being paid. We had someone from the Philippines, from the partnership we work at, was over here in the United States, not someone on our team, but someone with the corporate company that we work with and did not know how to operate a washer and dryer, and we were kind of talking about that and the thought process was my initial thought process well, yeah, of course they probably do it all by hand over there. Well, come to find out that they have. That's a service that a lot of them actually use. Someone does their laundry for them because it's so service and labor is so cheap, people are willing to do, and so I think about here the idea of having my laundry done for me here is foreign.
Speaker 3:I think most Americans have their own washer and dryer and do their own laundry. But yeah, it's different, so there are different pros and cons.
Speaker 2:Well, that's great. Though that speaks to your point, your original perception was shattered by engaging with somebody who was in that particular locale. It's just we've gotten as a society and I say everything that I say I take full weight of it's like this gluttonous approach to everything and always wanting these higher quality things, and so that just, unfortunately for us, rolls downhill. I do think when you were talking earlier about the fairness of it all, luckily for us rules downhill. I do think, you know, when you were talking earlier about the fairness of it all, luckily for us, because of that, we have massive purchasing power. I think as a country, that puts us in a, you know, a real unique position, because using or losing the US purchasing power as a trade partner of ours is devastating and I think you saw that when the first round of tariffs came out, a lot of countries real quick fixed whatever problem you know that existed because of that. So, yeah, I mean it's a very unique thing and you know, again, it goes back. I do want to call this out. Actually this is a little bit off point, but you said something earlier about your responsibility to your country.
Speaker 2:There was an individual that had, I believe, their company makes some type of portable air conditioner or something to that effect. He decided that because you've heard for years people will pay more for Made in the USA. He decided to do it that because you've heard for years people will pay more for made in the USA, right? So he decided to do it and he's like I will price this from a ratio perspective exactly the same, based on my costs, and I'll put made in USA and we'll see if people bought it. And the one that was made overseas was $150.
Speaker 2:And the one that was made in USA is $239. Zero. People bought the $239 one is $239. Zero. People bought the $239 one Zero. Because we want you know, this is like a bigger issue, right? This is this giant epidemic Again. It's funny because the underlying premise of most of our podcast comes back to this we want things as cheap as possible, we want them as quickly as possible and you know, we want the luxuries and we don't want to have to work for any of it. And I'm not, again, all this said, right, I take full weight, I'm part of the problem in a lot of instances too. I'm not pointing any fingers, but you can't do that and then sit there and point fingers at people that are trying to make the situation better.
Speaker 1:It's so funny because you want to. You're like I want to want. You know we've talked about want to want. It's like I want to buy American made products until they're 30% more. It's like at what point in time do you actually take action based on the either the pain or the to? You're willing to buy into an ideal like that right, like made in america. I'm willing to buy into made in america unless it reaches a threshold that's too much more, or unless I have to drive too much further, or unless it's so. I think there is an element of that where there are people that will live into that. But it's the same with recycling, it's the same with anything else. In theory, they're all great things, but are we willing to go that extra mile? I just don't know.
Speaker 3:I think in a perfect world for a lot of people the business owners just eat it right, eat the margin and they and I just unfortunately that's not a reality because being in business is a choice and there is a cost of running a business and Grant County and how much of a challenge that is and the core of that challenge becomes.
Speaker 3:It's not super compelling to be a business owner of a child care facility because of the lack of margins and the headaches and all of the different things and hiring and the turnover and there's a level of pain. I think a lot of people part of the perception issue in terms of people's desire to throw shade at business owners for maybe taking things overseas or doing some of those things is probably not as much visibility into the pain and inconveniences and challenges of running a business. I run a business, a data analytics business, and I just got a call this morning that our top developer resigned and the amount of headache and stress and anxiety and challenge and we just brought on our second developer a month ago and they have no idea what they're doing and I realize you guys are learning about this for the first time as a client.
Speaker 1:that's good to know.
Speaker 3:And it's going to cause a lot of, and we've got a couple hundred users across the country who are relying on us to provide a service, and now the main person that's behind providing that service is no longer with us.
Speaker 3:And so being a business owner and or operating a business, or even being in leadership at a business, that doesn't really have to do with your equity position. There's a lot about it that sucks, and the reality is there's a level of profitability that certain people are going to be willing to go through that for, and if that means partnering with potential resources or purchasing products or services outside of the country in order to sustain it, that's always going to be on the table, especially as things become more and more global. Because now look at the work environment after COVID, a lot of people are hybrid, right, so you have a lot of people, for prior to that, you had a lot of people in the office. There was a lot of water cooler conversations. Things got done that way. Now you have people working from home two to three days a week, so someone that speaks perfect English in the Philippines. There's not too much different of relationship established and connection and ability to do the work than someone that's working from home two to three days here, so it's complex.
Speaker 2:You know what this and I don't know the reason for that, but it does spark that. Who really gets hurt by a lot of this stuff is the medium-sized businesses. One of the things that's happened in the US over the years and continues to happen is acquisition. I mean, you do acquisitions but these big companies just get bigger and bigger and bigger. And when something like a tariff happens and a medium-sized business would probably be more forced to collaborate, hey, if you want our product, or small business, if you want our product at a reasonable price, we've got to figure out we're going to raise it just this much, and then you raise it just this much so that you don't lose your customers, whereas the giants, the retailers with 5,000 stores, it's kind of you know.
Speaker 1:They set the market.
Speaker 2:Like look, maybe we'll be nice and take a little bit of a margin hit for you, because we appreciate what you do for us as an organization. But at the end of the day, it's, you know, they're like well, we don't want to raise prices at all, so you're going to have to eat it. And then to your point. Then you have situations where these particular brands just go under because they can't. One of the brands that is in our industry right now has been squeezed pretty heavily and we're all confused because they've just increased their prices to a point where it looks like they're trying to blow their business up completely, lean it out and sell it because and this is a massive brand in our space um, because these types of things are happening and it's uh, it's pretty wild, but that's, you know, that's who this is really impacting. Are these smaller businesses that have to, you know, kowtow to these major retailers in our world.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. Small business, medium business, I don't know. We're kind of unique because we only have roughly 60 employees but yet we use. You know, we have 10 in the Philippines, which I don't think that's super common. We just happen to meet the right people and kind of do the right thing. So, from a service perspective, I don't know how many small businesses are utilizing those services. From a product standpoint, I believe there's tons of businesses that are importing products, and so I think a lot of your businesses are probably feeling on the product side and probably not so many are on the service side.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I don't even know that I should know this. From a tariff perspective, is service even subject to?
Speaker 1:I don't think so. I don't think so either. I don't think we pay anything on that, yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't think that's a play.
Speaker 1:Did you have something? Go ahead, no, go ahead. Well, I was going to shift into tariffs. Sometimes can stifle innovation, right. So we were just talking about EVs, electronic vehicles, and China has just some incredible like we just watched something a few minutes ago about a vehicle that's just, it's unbelievable what it can do. Well, the US put 100% tariff on Chinese EVs to keep them out of the country. I chat, gpt'd this, cpt'd. This 100% tariff on Chinese-made EVs took effect on September 27th of 2024, which quadrupled the rate they increased on batteries, solar cells, aluminum. All of that Even through this reduction in tariffs, where the US reduced tariffs on chinese goods from 145 to 30 and china lowered it from 125 to 10.
Speaker 1:Tariffs implemented before april 2nd of 25, including the 100 tariff on chinese chinese evs, remain in place, and so, basically, you know they've done this to help promote the local evs, but in essence, after looking at some of the products that they have, it's stifling creativity and innovation and pushing the companies here further down to get them to a spot where we have products that I mean these cars are driving themselves. They're doing all kinds of crazy stuff, better than Tesla from what you can see, but we're not having that competition here. So talk to me about tariffs and how do you feel like that can at times stifle innovation in a certain category?
Speaker 3:I mean, I think it comes back to competition. Right, we always play to our competition and I certainly think, whether it's tariffs or bans or whatever it is, there's other ways, I think, to stifle competition. I think it certainly does not put us in a position where, I think, just as humans, I think we respond to that. Some of this goes back to our needs for status that we were talking about, and other drivers, but we respond to competition to survive. We have a survival mechanism that kicks in, and if you don't need to make any adjustments to continue sales, then you're probably not going to do that. But if Huawei or BYD or one of these other really high-end electric car manufacturers from China all of a sudden could come in and sell their vehicles, it would prompt a lot of, probably, urgency and action internally to keep pace. And so I think anytime you, in a fabricated fashion, limit competition, I think that's going to have an effect.
Speaker 3:Now, I'm not saying that's bad or good right. Like again, it's this whole dynamic of continuing to support the prosperity of your own country and your own nation, to which all countries are doing to an extent right, and it's kind of. Some of this is, I think Trump has probably pushed the envelope a little bit and probably taken more of an interest in American prosperity than maybe presidents in the past, and I don't know necessarily how that compares to how other leaders of other countries are valuing that relative to the broader stability and well-being of the global economy. But it's yeah, it's super interesting, it's yeah it's super interesting.
Speaker 2:I just keep coming back to the same thing. You know it's like, what do they say? You know, when you're at the top of the mountains, the toughest place to stay, and I think in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, we've been like the fat cat, we've been at the top of this particular mountain and you know like you would talk about stifling innovation, we've just taken the shortcuts and again, you know like we talk about stifling innovation, we've just taken the shortcuts. And again, it's natural, human nature. And that's why I say keep coming back to the same thing. You know, having tariffs in place to stifle innovation, eventually that fails somehow, like in the meantime, it probably makes a ton of sense because you know the impact that it would have if these Chinese EVs flooded our marketplace. It would probably, you know, have if these Chinese EVs flooded our marketplace, it would probably, you know, catastrophically impact people that are in that world, in the automobile manufacturing world that are, you know, at every different level of that particular type of business. So I think it's, in the immediate, important, but it doesn't matter or it's not serving its purpose if we're not scrambling on the back end to figure out how to get to where they're at, and I don't think we are. You know, frankly, you see it over and over again.
Speaker 2:Years ago, probably 20 years ago, before we had a lot of exposure to China, all we would hear in our communities was they're really good at knocking things off. They just knock everything. Well, you know, they've used that and now they're innovating with the knowledge that they've gained by opening up what we had built at one point in time. And they're doing the same thing on the technological side. You know we have built a massive amount of wealth through technology in our country over the last 20 years and there's no secret that all these countries are knocking off our intellectual property and they're doing the same thing that we did as kids.
Speaker 2:You talked about me taking apart an Apple computer. They're looking at the code, they're figuring out how to optimize it because they're hungry and some of these countries that you talk about that are less developed. They're hungry and they want to get to that next level of the hierarchy and we don't. We want to, you know. But I do think and I don't want to say that again in such a derogatory manner I think as a society we're starting to revitalize ourselves and get re-excited about doing these hard things and about improving aspects of our selves physically, mentally, spiritually, whatever that lend themselves to these other pursuits and that bring us back to greatness.
Speaker 3:It'll be really hard to ever overcome the survival, the intrinsic survival instincts of the human, and I think that's what's happened in these underdeveloped countries. They're literally and figuratively hungry and they are getting after it and I think some of this is just an evolution. Generationally, in fact, julia from China and I were talking about this, and one of the things that fascinates me so much about China is they have been in the conversation of a powerhouse so many different times in the last several thousand years. Like you know, you go back to, like the initial dynasties. You know they were a major, major powerhouse and they've continued to reinvent themselves and stay relevant over different periods of time, which has been interesting. You know we've talked about kind of European. There was a, you know, there was a point where they were the I mean British were the largest landowner, I think ever in the history of the globe the, the you know civilization of the, of civilizations and and world history, they owned more of the globe than anyone else. And and I think it's, there is a pattern here you get to the top, you get content and then you kind of, you know, you go back to the bottom and you work your way back to the top. That's part of it. Now it depends what's the top.
Speaker 3:I think this is where the conversation gets really interesting. With technology, I think it gets a lot more sophisticated. Is the top financial gain? Because I think that's a lot of. What we're talking about here is financial prosperity. We look at sometimes Europe and we kind of I don't want to say I think there are hardworking classes in Americans that sometimes kind of poke fun at the fact that they take naps in the afternoon or that they, from a work ethic perspective I would say, probably don't maintain that of some of the Asian countries and or even America. In talking to Julia, she still perceives the US to be a very hardworking country, although I think we maybe not. Certainly we're not the men who made America, if you've ever seen that series on the.
Speaker 3:History Channel wonderful series. You want to talk about a generation and say that was hungry. I mean, they built the infrastructure across this entire country and I don't know that we would have the grit to do today. But we have kind of gotten to a point of very high prosperity. You've quoted before the boxer right Getting up at 4 am in silk pajamas.
Speaker 3:Someone had asked maybe it was Mayweather, or someone had asked like how do you still do it and how do you continue to get up? And he said you know, it's really hard to get up at 4 am for a workout when you're in soaked pajamas. And I think there's a part of that that applies societally. As we get more prosperity and we live more convenient lives, it gets more and more difficult to grind and gut it out. So it'll be interesting to see how this evolves.
Speaker 3:And I say see, as hopefully there's an afterlife where I can observe this, because these types of things take hundreds of years to play out, like how will this cycle through and where will the US be? And the one thing, a point, I wanted to come back to, is, like the Europeans, you know, if the perceptions are accurate and I don't even want to deem that they are. Maybe they have it figured out from a work-life balance perspective. Right, it's not necessarily all about financial prosperity, and so some of this you've got to look at with perspective. If we're just talking about the top from a financial prosperity perspective, or the top from a work-life balance or an overall joy fulfillment purpose you name it it gets infinitely more complex.
Speaker 2:We're going to have to continue. I mean, you know, it's funny. It feels like in a lot of instances. I don't think we're at this point where we're going to fall back off the cliff yet, because we're continuing to be very creative and innovative when it comes to squeezing blood out of a rock, like we're figuring out all of these different little tiny areas to make money. But we're going to have to. I'll be interested to see, like you said, this is going to take a while to play out, but what happens when UBI becomes something that has to be implemented?
Speaker 1:I heard a really interesting when you say UBI.
Speaker 2:Universal basic income, sorry, where everybody gets kind of a stipend every month. I saw something very interesting the other day that flipped up my perception on its head. Very interesting the other day, that flipped up my perception on its head. Us Steel, which is based out of Gary Indiana which is Gary Indiana if you go on YouTube is constantly lambasted. No, gary Indiana is constantly presented as this ghost town, as this skeleton of itself, and US Steel was, I think, at one point in time, the biggest steel manufacturing plant in the world. Oh, this is crazy. When US Steel was at its height, it was doing 5 billion tons of steel a year and had 30,000 employees. Today, us Steel has 2,000 employees and does 8 billion tons a year, or whatever. The number is 8 million, whatever, but it does more steel now.
Speaker 3:But because technology has advanced so far, they are doing it with 115th the employees I mean, I know we just talked about ai, but that's the whole next level of this. We're talking here about service and some of the jobs and things that are being outsourced to other people in other countries, as opposed to bots or AI, that I mean it's going to get.
Speaker 1:You think that changes the narrative right? So if someone's being replaced or capacity's being added and it comes from a technological or a robot, versus another country, do you believe that that's more acceptable or more accepted by the general public? And I'm talking more about perspective whether that's right or wrong, because I think a lot of all of this stuff boils down to the perspective of the person right, and a lot of that comes from the environment that you live in and the job that you have. You're going to have a unique perspective on how you look at a situation. Do you think that narrative changes at all based on where it's coming from?
Speaker 3:it depends on your perspective. From a nationalistic perspective, I could see it potentially being more acceptable because you're investing in this technology and maybe the resources are staying internal to the country based, depending on where these bots are being developed and how, um, I think, from a uh, humanitarian perspective, I think it could be worse. Right, you're offering a job to set to a robot that has no living existence or being relative to a being that may just happen to be residing in another country, in another part of the world. So I think, depending on the perspective you come at this from, could be very different.
Speaker 2:It's going to be interesting to follow the money. That's what's crazy when you think about these, right, because, okay, now the person doing the labor is not making the money. The person making the money is the person that manufactured the robot, the person that wrote the software for the robot, the administration. It's just going to be interesting to see where it shifts, because we talked about it earlier how it shifted from you think about construction crews when you and again all we have we weren't alive in the 50s and 60s.
Speaker 2:But when you look at construction crews, historically speaking, when you see pictures and things, it was typically the people living in the communities that were doing contract work. Now you look at it, the guy who's running the crew, you know is of a particular, you know is of a particular in a particular class of society and they're outsourcing their crews. Now, you know, because the crews are outsourcing I mean, you know my wife's, half Mexican, watching them put a roof on. We talk about optimization and ability to do something and like really, really good and have really figured out like yo, we can, you know it would. It would have taken crews a day to put a roof on. These guys can do six roofs in a day because they've specialized and they're really good at it and so I don't really even know what I was going with that.
Speaker 1:But I think it's an interesting, you know thought, whether you know you're working with the Amish to build a building which is something that they have crafted over a year. So there's the cost side and there's the talent side, right? And so if you're looking at both these, if you're a business owner and you decide to take the plunge into entrepreneurship and you have a business, your job is to solve a problem. You've talked about that. What problem are you solving and how? How are you solving that problem in the most efficient and profitable manner for for you and your family? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think, depending on the way you approach it. Well, if you outsource overseas, that could be looked on bad. If you're doing robots, that could be looked on bad, or you're using AI to do it, I mean. So I think, no matter what you do, there's a narrative and a perspective that we could fall into.
Speaker 1:But I think you're 100% right. Is there's more general contractors that are, you know, good friend owns a roofing company. They GC everything out, right, the actual work crews that do the work, and so I think it's happening across the board. Some of them are, you know, here locally, as US citizens, but they're being outsourced in different ways and I think it's kind of the nature of the beast. Now it is a global economy and you keep talking about nationalists versus globalists and really I don't know where I land on that anymore. Obviously, I want to support people and support jobs here and to continue to provide opportunities for people to grow and be successful, but we've seen that happen in all countries and we've been able to support people and sponsor kids and they do things that are life changing for people, regardless of geographical location.
Speaker 3:I think the concern is if it's if we go the economist, the economist view is typically like a very exaggerated view. If everyone operated in this fashion, what happens right and I think that's probably the fear and the concern is that if there was no boundaries country-wise, the wealth distribution from a country perspective would get very, very polarizing. For example, if it was a completely open market right now, with the amount of people and infrastructure and innovation that China has Like if we think for 500 to $130 billion trade deficit, if you open the market to their vehicles and maybe some of these other things, it could look you could have a lot, even more money funneling into these countries who are at a place where they are in that sweet spot of still very, very hard working in nature but also have the technology and the infrastructure. And China, I think, is right in that sweet spot. Taiwan and some of those others not quite the infrastructure getting there. You know Taiwan and some of those others not quite the infrastructure getting there, but very hardworking. Vietnam is another one that's there. But these countries are in a sweet spot. You could see, I mean, if it was truly a level playing field and consumers only bought from where they could get the best value right. Like we're all interested in that, naturally for our own survival. But if everybody invested where they could get their best value, you might have a very high percentage of things being bought from a select few countries services and products and the wealth distribution geographically across the world I think would get dangerously polarizing. So I don't know, it'd be interesting.
Speaker 3:You go back to I have to bring up we had a text thread the other day going around with people talking about and we've joked about this having our own little community compound right. Like you go back in the days of villages, where I don't want to bring up something completely separate, super interesting. But you go back to the day of the villages. You had 50, 100, couple hundred people in a village and that's all that you kind of operated within, like everybody in there, like all the resources, funds, uh, stayed within those little pods and that's continued to change over time and get bigger and bigger and I don't know if we'll cycle back closer to that at any point. My, my gut tells me not that we're going to continue to go global, but it'd be interesting to see where it goes. I mean, it's just a very, very different society.
Speaker 1:You're seeing some of that happen in food right People local sourcing, local source food and I don't think everyone's going to move back out on farms. But you are seeing some stuff come a little bit full, a little more full circle.
Speaker 2:It's crazy that earlier in the conversation you said something about people looking down on people for outsourcing things.
Speaker 2:But the more you see, more I think about it being a little bit more globally focused, seems a little bit more humanitarian, because essentially what you're doing is help some, helping somebody get to that next level for sure, versus feeding the cat that's already fat.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean, that's my perspective on it. One of the things, like you said, somebody owns a contracting business and they're GCing everything out. Well, a lot of times what they're doing is helping the individuals on the GC, on that team. They're facilitating something that they're not very good at and helping them get to that next level right. So like having conversations with people about projects and going through and planning these things and working with architects to design stuff. You know, maybe that skill set isn't on this crew, but over time, if they work together enough, they can develop the skill set and go off and kind of start their own crew. So you're helping somebody get to that next level. Similarly, like you said, you know, funneling money into these countries to help them develop so that there's a little bit more of a level playing field seems to be, you know, a good thing in my perspective.
Speaker 3:I think from a humanitarian perspective it's really hard to argue that. From a nationalistic prosperity perspective you could debate it and that totally is the angle you're coming from. And again, the obligation that's what I don't pretend to have a really good understanding on historically is just if everyone did that, what would that mean for the well-being and the living standard of living here in the United States over time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, why do you guys believe there's so much confusion around tariffs? It feels like that, at least in the circles that I run in. What do you? Because it's super complex.
Speaker 3:I mean, just like we said, depending on the industry, depending on the product or depending on the business owner, there's so many different things that can happen. It could cause consumer prices to go up, it could cause businesses to go out of business, it could cause jobs to go from China to Taiwan or Vietnam or to the US. I think it's super complicated because so many different outcomes can happen based on the reality of the situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everybody just wants to oversimplify everything. Everything has to be so black and white, everything has to be so supercharged. I mean, we've just talked about seven different ways that this could impact us, right? So let's say, the tariffs stay on electronics. Well, guess what? Those jobs are never coming back here because, like you said, we do not have the expertise, we do not have the infrastructure, and even if we did, it would take a decade where, from an automobile perspective, we have a little bit more of that infrastructure, and so tariffs in that space might make a little bit more sense Again, especially if we scramble on the other side.
Speaker 2:So, like this view that tariffs are terrible and everything in this economy is going to triple in price. You don't know that. I just explained the scenario with a very large retailer, right, it's not them, it's not the consumer that's going to get the brunt at the end of the day, because they want to maintain the market share that they have. It's probably going to be the small business that eats it. So you out there as a consumer complaining that prices are going to go up, you have no idea, because you don't understand the landscape, you don't deal with it on a day-to-day basis, and so I think that, but again, people want to oversimplify things in the same breath, that people want to say, oh yeah, doing this is going to make us trillions of dollars and every job that ever left the U? S is going to come back. No, it's not. It's super complex.
Speaker 3:I think I think it's right Politically. You have people on the left saying this is the dumbest thing in the world, People on the right saying this is the brightest thing in the world, at least long-term, and I think that oversimplification creates a lot of confusion and I hope the one thing people listening to this podcast take from it is it's complex and it's not. There's not a simple answer, it's there's a lot of different forces at play.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I would encourage anybody to go out and do your research and develop your own perspective and have conversations like these. I mean we've said five times in this podcast we're not economists, you know. We'll think through this and talk through this logically from from our own experiences. But these are fun conversations to have and these are the conversations that help us drive forward potential paths that make the most sense for us as a society.
Speaker 1:You know, it's really interesting. As you guys were talking, I just remembered a clip I saw I think it was Bernie Sanders, maybe in the 80s or 90s, and he was saying the exact same thing about the tariffs and the trade deficit that Trump is doing now, basically, and Trump's been talking about this for 20 or 30 years and again 1986, 1986.
Speaker 1:We're not here to pick sides of who's, because there is real impact. The real is short term and long term. There is a strategy, I think, behind everything they're doing. Um, right, wrong or indifferent, trump is a nationalist at the fullest right. So, for sure, um, though he he said that coming into office that that's the way he was going to operate. He's continued to operate that way. We're not saying that's the right way, we're just saying that's the way he's kind of approached it.
Speaker 1:But I think one of the things you said I think is really fascinating is what does define being at the top and what's most important. I know when gosh it was probably six, it may have been 10 years ago now when me and my wife went to Italy, and just the way they do life is so different. You know, they shut down in the afternoon the restaurants, people take walks and have a glass of wine and they just live a more fruitful life, and so it feels like they live a very fruitful, balanced life where they're valuing different things. And we have had and still do it. So we have this grind, work, grind mentality to make more money, because we are the ultimate consumer. I would say something about the US is. We consume and waste and consume and consume, and because we're constantly chasing something, we need to continue to make more money and do more things, and I wonder how that's going to shift over the next couple of decades.
Speaker 2:You know I want to jump in real, real fast. I think we've gone from the grind, work, grind to the scam, like in a lot of instances not everybody, there's still a lot of that to make more money, but you're seeing more of loopholes. We talked in prior podcasts about Amazon and reselling that. If this stays where it is, that's over. But, like I mean, you've seen people.
Speaker 2:I had somebody show me the other day and again this is a hustle and a grind but it's somebody had gone into I think it was a Sephora and bought the entire facing of products because they found that there was maybe it was Amazon or whatever but they had walked into a makeup store and they'd found that I can resell this for X number of dollars more on Amazon. So they bought them all and resold them. You know you're not necessarily. I mean it's a hustle more than it is a grind and I'm not, like you know, make money in any way you can, but, like you know, make money in any way you can, but like you know it's. It's just been interesting to see that I feel like we've looked for more shortcuts instead of biting the bullet in a lot of instances, and I think you know.
Speaker 3:So I just want to jump in and say that, yeah, the one thing I wanted to add to that we haven't talked about at all that when I say earlier on I feel an obligation. And what is that obligation to the country? That the group of people that I think about the most, that I feel an obligation to, is the military. Like you, have people dying for our country that are trying to protect our borders and protect what we have here. The freedoms conven conveniences, and so you know, it would be easy for a business owner to say, oh, you know, that's what I pay my taxes for, right, whatever 30, whatever percent taxes, but to think that there are people out there giving their lives for this country, it does, I think, naturally promote a little bit of nationalism and that we need to do our part as well. Whatever that looks like, and I, it's just, it's super complex. There's a lot of inner turmoil I guess I have there to sort through of. You know. I think it's important we're all on the same page, I guess.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Fair.
Speaker 1:You guys have anything else you want to add.
Speaker 2:I think it's good, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, a lot is going on with tariffs. There's a lot of stuff in the news and hopefully you guys gain some insights. We're not experts, but we do operate in businesses and, as you hear, we have a lot of, we are impacted in a lot of ways and we do use a lot of resources that are on the global market. So hope you got some good insight and we will see you next time.