The Dailey Edge Podcast
Join hosts Trent, TJ, and Todd Dailey as they explore the intersections of technology, culture, fitness, and personal growth. Through engaging discussions and personal anecdotes, the trio dives into topics ranging from childhood gaming nostalgia and cutting-edge fitness tech to the pursuit of happiness and lifestyle choices. Whether reminiscing about epic gaming marathons, sharing tips for staying on the forefront of fitness trends, or unraveling the complexities of modern life, The Dailey Edge delivers thoughtful insights, lively debates, and relatable stories for listeners of all walks of life.
The Dailey Edge Podcast
Episode 16: From Preparation to Finish Line: Mastering Race Day Psychology and Performance
The Daily Edge brothers share strategies to prepare both mentally and physically for race day, offering practical advice for overcoming race anxiety and achieving peak performance.
• Mental preparation is crucial for race success, with less overthinking often leading to better performance
• Excessive pre-race research and stress can leave you mentally exhausted before you even start
• Race anxiety naturally diminishes with experience and exposure to more races
• "Mental tapering" before a race can be just as important as physical tapering
• Fueling strategy requires practice during training—never try anything new on race day
• Taking gels every 6 miles (approximately 45 minutes) alternating with water and electrolyte drinks
• The difference between a "good day" and "bad day" performance is often much smaller than you think
• Finding purpose beyond personal achievement provides deeper motivation during tough moments
• Training in adverse conditions prepares you better than always seeking ideal circumstances
• For shorter races like 5Ks, warming up properly (15-20 minutes plus strides) is essential, especially for runners over 35
• Racing with others or for a cause can help you dig deeper than you would for yourself
Welcome to the Daily Edge where we bring you the latest insights, opinions and thought-provoking conversations to give you that competitive edge in life, business and beyond. Let's go Daily Edge. I'm here with my brothers, tj Daily and Todd Daily, and today we're going to talk about racing, like race prep maybe both physical and mental kind of going into it. There's a lot that happens there. Tj, you have been in more races than all of us. I know when I first started and I went into my first race how nervous I was and I was trying to do everything that you were doing. So I know there can be a lot of emotions there. There's a mental battle. There's obviously physical preparation. Why don't we just jump in with you, start talking about maybe some of your routines and how you prepare mentally and physically for a race?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say the first thing to call out from a race perspective is it gets easier over time. You know, I think what you see now with professional athletes and professional athletes as they're on that journey throughout their careers, is the continued exposure to it. That's such a big piece of the puzzle. Learning to. You know. They say that in races, most people, most people, common people and this isn't related to prep but during the race they try to disassociate, focus on the music, focus on the crowd. People that have had enough exposure to racing do the exact opposite. They dial into the feeling and embrace the feeling and try to listen to their body, as opposed to kind of disassociating, and so that enables, enables them to kind of squeeze every um bit of performance out of them. So for me, racing has been an evolution. Uh, starting in, I mean we'll, we'll just fast forward right to kind of the beginning of the serious marathoning and road racing in 2012. There was a lot of anxiety around it. You know I have friends who have extreme pre-race anxiety and you know dealing with that initially can be you can accomplish. You know you can accomplish dealing with that through kind of controlling what you can control. So this particular individual, even though he's local to the races that we run in. He will stay the night downtown, like within a block of where the race begins, so that he doesn't have to worry about logistical stresses of the morning begin, so that he doesn't have to worry about logistical stresses of the morning. So, in terms of ensuring that you have the right mindset going in, I think it's starting with controlling what you can control, but not overthinking things.
Speaker 2:I think, for me, we'll unpack all this stuff, but one of the biggest mistakes I ever made was over-preparation and overthinking, and that would have been Boston in 2017. I had trained to break three. I took basically three weeks off of work, like I was working for two of them, but it was just constant research and this is what works for me. So find what works for you, right. But constant research is related to the course. And what does elevation look like? And looking at the weather every couple of minutes how hot is it going to be, how much is the temperature increasing, what direction is the wind blowing from? And then you know fretting over how I was going to fuel gel every 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 45, all of these little things, and by the time I got to the start line of that race three weeks later, I was so mentally gassed and this happened again to me in New York in 2019 that I just exploded. I just had no mental fortitude left at all.
Speaker 2:And so you know, I think it's important, I think to call that out at the beginning is you got to find what works for you. But everybody I've talked to, everybody that I've been surrounded by, by and large, says the less I think you've said this before the less you care about it, the better you're going to do. Prepare yourself, know what's coming. Don't shy away from it, meaning don't go into it thinking it's going to be easy, because it never is. Know what you're getting yourself into, respect the distance, but maybe don't put that kind of pressure on yourself. Just kind of see what the day gives you. I've done that. The results have been within real close proximity to what an A race result would be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say a lot of this goes back to something we've talked about in several episodes, which is fear of failure, and I, for me that's where a lot of the race anxiety stemmed from is you work hard to train and you've done all this preparation, you've put in dozens of hours over two to three months and it all culminates in one race, depending on the duration, anywhere from 30 minutes to four hours or five hours, and that's a lot of pressure and you want to. You almost you have this like desire to do yourself justice for all the training and preparation. Obviously, you, almost you have this like desire to do yourself justice for all the training and preparation. Obviously, if you didn't care, you wouldn't have gone through all that preparation, and so I think you know a couple of things. I would say is A it's super normal Over time.
Speaker 1:For me, probably the most important tip that I learned to deal with race anxiety is to race more. The more you race, the more that fades, because you realize the worst that's going to happen. I think one of the worst that's going to happen is you're going to have a bad day and you're going to run a few minutes slower than you anticipated. That's the absolute worst thing that's going to happen. Now I could say, you know, in some cases maybe you're going to experience an injury and have to drop out of the race. Maybe that's a you know, depending on who you are, whether that's worse or better than them finishing um with a slower time. But I think, racing, the more you race, the more you realize there's not much that's going to go wrong. I think one of my also my myths that I kind of busted through experience over time is I felt like my range of performance was, uh, could, was going to be much wider than it really is. Like you go into these races and let's just take a marathon, for example, um, you know, I felt if I have a bad day, I was going to run 10, 15, 20 minutes slower than if I had a good day. The reality is, if you, you know, short of an injury, um, in a lot of cases the difference between a good day and a bad day is not nearly as wide as you think it's going to be. Um, and one of the the other pieces that I'm going to add to this, that's a little bit of a caveat there. I know there have been times where and I've had races where you kind of mentally blow up and once you start to slow down you can't stop it right and you just you kind of fall off the cliff. That does happen. But in terms of your body's preparation, if you can trust that process and trust that your body's in a certain level of fitness, you will perform within a few minutes of each other. And you know again, depending on good or bad day and the less pressure you could put on yourself the better.
Speaker 1:And I want to come back to that point that you made, because one of the things that I have had a lot of success with is what I would call mental tapering. A lot of people talk about mileage tapering. When you get up into a marathon, the couple of weeks before you give yourself the physical rest so your body's fresh going into the marathon. I don't know that this is a thing, or if it is a thing, I'm not sure of it. I have found over time to do mental tapering, especially for a marathon. This is more the week before I will really be mindful of the type of cognitively taxing things that I engage in, to be going in fresh mentally to a race, and that makes a huge difference for me. You talked about being mentally gassed, getting to the start line, and I can't tell you how many times I've done the same thing. In my better races and ones where I've had more consistent performance over time, I have mentally tapered, so I've got the energy to control the thoughts in my brain that you know you're going to get hit with. This is too hard. You need to slow down, it's time to give up and if you have that mental energy stored up, it can make a world of difference.
Speaker 1:Let's focus on the marathon for a second. I don't think I've I would still say I've never figured the race day out. I'm still not over the hump for what that actually means. I'm always trying to save it in the tank per se and I want the back half of the marathon to feel like the front half, like okay, I'm just going to lock in. I feel good, I get 13 miles in. I feel good I get 17 miles in and I just I am completely dead. You've said some things to me before about you have to kind of transition with the size of the race. How do you mentally because on the marathon and I think marathon and under probably say marathon and mini are way different than an ultra right Because you're not racing as fast. Generally speaking, how do you approach the mini or the marathon race and how would you coach people to mentally get through that and what to expect along the way?
Speaker 2:I think there's two different things. You can do three different things, right? So you talked about negative splitting, which is running the back half and having it feel better. That's very difficult because most people aren't experienced enough to trust themselves. So a lot of people don't believe you know. They think if they run. Let's say your goal, just because I know the math. Let's say your goal is three hours, which is 652 per mile.
Speaker 2:People have a real hard time going out at 710 for the first couple of miles and then writing that down because they're like, oh, if I go out at 710, okay, by the half I'm down 130 seconds, that's two minutes and 10 seconds. I know that the back half's going to be harder. There's no way I'm going to make that up. Well, what we know is you do it the other way around. You could lose 210 in one mile, like on the other way. So that's one thing you can do through experience. It comes with trusting yourself more. But what's worked for me is as unfortunate as this is yourself more. But what's worked for me is as unfortunate as this is running faster races, running 5Ks, running 10Ks, running halves for the full, and I say that you know most marathon plans at least most new marathon plans have some type of intervals. But what intervals can do is they can give you this false sense of security, and I've run up against this myself. I can go out right now and run a 545 pace, six minute interval, and I can do that seven times, no problem. You know what I can't do. I can't go out and run 545 for a 10K. So you know you run those paces and you're like, oh well, I mean I can do that, that's no problem. I can do those intervals and whatever I'm using to measure it, whether it's my relative effort, whether it's my heart rate, whether it's my lactate, it's in the right range. I'm running these intervals and I'm at a 150 heart rate and that's about my marathon heart rate, so no problem. Well then you go out there and you extend that interval to a 5k interval or something longer and you're extraordinarily disappointed, and if that in in your ability to perform, because you know those are two completely different things. So my point in saying that is even if you're doing high intensity stuff within a marathon build and it's 400s or k's and it's these shorter intervals, that just isn't the same as getting out there and ripping a 5k and feeling that pain. And then again, I think it comes with experience and racing more like you said, but being able to take the pain that you experience in these faster races and apply it to different sections of the marathon.
Speaker 2:So when 17 hits, you know I said it was two years ago, boston, the last time I ran it by myself, and I remember getting to 15 and my breathing pattern changed Normally oh boy, right, here it comes, here comes the wall, whatever, whatever. My thought process instead was all right, half marathon, effort time. And so now I'm like okay, I can handle this. You know, I know what my breathing pattern is like for a half marathon and my effort feels like and I know what it is for these subsequent pieces of the marathon. So I know I can. I'm at mile 15, I've got 11 left. I know I can hold this for a half, and then it does get harder over time.
Speaker 2:But if you've run a 10K or a 5K and you're at the last couple of miles and it feels like you're running an all-out mile, you know that you're gonna be okay, that you're gonna live, you're not gonna die. I think one of our biggest all of us had this right. One of your biggest concerns your first couple of marathons is you're gonna be that guy 500 meters from the finish line on all fours, like that's such a rarity. I've watched hundreds of races and I've seen that happen three times. You know we're talking tens of thousands of competitors. So again, I think back to Todd's more exposure, more experience, and then there will be some things we can talk about when it comes to training. What what people are starting to recognize is there's other elements of this approach that you need to focus on from a training perspective. Um to again, just another way to help offset that feeling that comes later in a race.
Speaker 1:Uh, one thing I wanted to add, um, and just to putting those pieces together, how I've kind of experienced exactly what you just said, is there are going to be a handful of moments in every race where you are put in a really vulnerable, tough spot. Your brain is going to tell you it's time to shut it down and the key there is you have to win those moments. You have to win those moments and you can never get to a place, never want to put yourself in a position where, when you're digesting the rest of the race in the context of your time goal, that you don't believe you have it, because at that point it's when you shut it down. So what? Some of the tactics you're talking about, I think are all centered around winning those moments when you, if you bank too much time upfront, meaning you come out too hot and you're trying to. You're say you're shooting for a three hour marathon, or let's just say you're shooting for a four hour marathon, which is a nine oh nine pace, and you come out running 8.45s. You're going to put yourself in a pretty vulnerable spot when you hit 13 or 15, and you have exerted a ton of energy and you realize you still have 10 to 12 left. That's a high-risk moment. You're putting yourself in of still being able to win that moment and say I can still hold this. On the contrary, if you go out too slow and try a negative split too hard, you're putting a lot of pressure on what you have to run those last 10 miles at, because that's what happens, right. Let's just say you go out 915, 920, and then you're like, oh gosh, I have to run these last 10 miles sub nine or I'm not going to hit my goal. You're putting a lot of pressure on that moment and you've got to.
Speaker 1:And I think what you have said racing, racing, racing is you understand those thresholds, you understand those pain tolerances. You've been in the moment where you have exerted that high level of intensity for longer periods of time. That's what allows you to tell your brain I've got this. That's what allows you to win that moment. So I think it's an art in terms of exactly how you want to pace yourself. I've had a lot of success with just going a little bit under my pace to start with, banking a little bit of time, give me some breathing room. That kind of gives me some comfort, but also not going too far off of that. There's been a couple times in my life where I've been like I'm going to overtrain, I'm going to set myself up to run a three-hour marathon and I really just want to run a 315. And mentally I'm like, oh then this is going to be easy. It's never been easy.
Speaker 2:It never is easy. I mean, I'm really nervous about we're in the proximity of Boston and I'm really nervous about this particular race, whether this airs before or after it. I've had a very, very difficult buildup with a lot of injuries that we've talked about in prior podcasts. And having done all of this, I am missing some key pieces. I haven't raced fast since last summer, you know, and a lot of times it's having that, you know. I'll give you an example A couple of weeks ago I went out and did a pseudo long run.
Speaker 2:I have not run anything further than 15 miles and I went out and did a pseudo long run and I was building that. That effort was built off of Effort that I had felt in those interval sessions I referred to earlier prior. And I went out there and I did this work at this effort that I perceived would be stronger than it was. And, um, I was 25 seconds a mile slower than I thought I would be and I felt awful at the end of it. It was just, I think it was 10 miles of pickup within the 15 miles and I'd have been lucky to hold that for a half marathon. So that was really.
Speaker 2:But again, I've run half marathons where I've held my heart rate in the mid 160s and my heart rate was like 150 flat. So I know there's a considerable, you know. But I'm so used to these efforts that in the comfort within those, within those ranges, and the lack of longer and harder efforts, um is really got me Does knowing those numbers help you though, like if you're feeling a certain way and you're like I know I can hold one 60, my heart rates's 150.
Speaker 1:Does that help bring you back in a little bit that you're, it's all in your head and that really the body can handle it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially at those moments that he was talking about, like when I hit that half that, that 15 miles at Boston, and I looked down and I'm like, okay, we're at 154. I know I can hold 163 for a half marathon, so I'm not quite there yet. I kind of know what my body looks like from a heart rate drift perspective, because as you go throughout a distance like that, you're gonna drift, um, you know, one beat per 5k or something to that effect, so you're gonna be 10 bpm higher than you were at the beginning, just off a drift, um. But it's important to prepare. But I think again, within that preparation and there's some other things you need to do too. You know I kind of alluded to it earlier, but is nutrition's a big one? You need to practice.
Speaker 1:That was kind of my. Next thing is pre-race and race fuel. I go back to the marathon. We ran right after mom passed and we were all in incredible shape. We all had these goals of breaking three hours. Two of the three broke it. I exploded. I ran the first half of the marathon around seven flat and I felt incredible, like I just really felt good. When I hit mile 17. And this has happened to me a couple of times I felt like I and I took a gel at like 13. I literally felt like I had no energy. It wasn't and I think I could understand a mental battle, but I got to this point of fatigue that I couldn't even describe and I ended up running I don't know a 315 or 320 or something like that. But talk to me about your fuel strategies and making sure that you have enough fuel during the race, or maybe even start with what type of fuel you do up to the night before um, you can go ahead yeah, tj's probably a better source of record on this.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you what's worked for me. I mean, I think I've just always done a lot of carbs, especially for the longer races. You know I won't shy away from protein. I would say I did that a lot when I was younger, um, but anymore, as long as I'm not eating a big heavy meal the night before, I just want to make sure I have um, I'm getting enough. It's certainly not the time to be fasting or intermittent fasting. I just want to make sure there's there's a decent amount of fuel, um in there. Hydration is also key Um.
Speaker 1:And then morning of I try and eat something. Maybe five to five hundred to seven hundred fifty calories, uh, two hour and a half to two hours before the start of the race. I will say, as I've run more, my body handles digestion a little better while I'm running, and and at a marathon pace, let's talk. I'm talking marathon here because this definitely changes as the race gets shorter. For marathon I'm not going to be running as fast out of the gate. My body can process some of that as it's going. If I'm running a much shorter race, I'm eating a lot less and I'm being more cautious of that.
Speaker 1:I think the rule for fuel for me is you can't get behind, and so you can't wait until you're you're tired or you're running out of energy. Once you have a deficiency it's way too late. So I'll do that at the five to seven 50. And then my rule is a gel every 10 K or so, and then I also alternate between water and Gatorade, and it sounds like a lot, um, but generally I'll have a hand bottle that has one of the two, and then at the AIDS, at the aid stations, I'll generally take the other one on occasion. So I get a little bit of calories that way get a little bit of calories from the gel every 10K or so. Six miles, which is 45 minutes give or take, and so that'll be four gels over the course of a marathon. That's generally how I do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very similar to the night before A thousand calories of a light meal Not a light meal, but light, you know carbs, probably something Italian. And then my day I was a little bit different. So I've intermittent fasted for a number of years now, and so what I'll do typically is I get up about four hours before the race and I'll do a Morton 320 drink mix, so 320 calories, and then I'll go back to bed and so 320 calories, and then I'll go back to bed and then I'll eat a banana or two, you know, an hour before the race or whatever, maybe have a little like regular Gatorade with some calories there. One of the big things in performance over the last probably two years has been the gut training, and so there's been massive advancements in terms of what people thought was possible from a digestive perspective. You know, one of the things that people are using and they say they get great results I haven't used enough to like comment on it is ketone IQ. So ketones. It's kind of built on the premise that your body has two energy stores that it's going to pull from typically during a race. One is going to be your ketone pool and one's going to be your, your glycogen or your glucose, bloodstream glucose, um. And so you know, having a full ketone store and a full uh you know glycogen store plus blood glucose is going to give you the best results when it comes to a fuel, but on the on the food side of things.
Speaker 2:So David Roche is an ultra athlete. He's an ultra coach and one of the most successful of all time. Broke a record maybe a year ago now for the Leadville 100. And it was one of the most difficult ultra records ever created. It was, or ever achieved, and it was a Matt Carpenter record, who is one of the most um elites, elite sky athletes. Sky athletes means you race at altitude that has ever lived. He had a VO two max of almost a hundred Um.
Speaker 2:Anyways, david beat this record that has been on the books since 1994 or something like that, and one of the ways he did that was by doing extreme gut training. He was able to, for 100 miles, to process 500 calories an hour. That would be like taking a gel every 10 minutes, but he never had an issue where he was depleted. So what that's showing is that there are ways, whether it's through liquid calories and or gel calories, to consume way more than we think. So, like my plan, I'm going to do a longer effort tomorrow. I'm going to try gels, and I've done this in the past every 20 minutes, so that's 300 calories an hour versus um 500, but you know, it could prove to be really beneficial, and I have been doing a hand bottle of uh tailwind at 300 calories per bottle during some of my more intense training sessions.
Speaker 1:So one of the biggest things I think let's get the elephant in the room is like restroom. Like one of your biggest fears I think let's get the elephant in the room is like restroom. Like one of your biggest fears is like I got to go to the restroom in the middle of the race. Like how do you guys navigate that? Hold it off as long as you possibly can. But is that common Like have you found? Are you finding that you stop at least once to use the restroom?
Speaker 2:I would say I stop at least once in about half of the marathons. So let's see here half of the marathons. So let's see here, uh, 2000,. When was it? Boston 22,? Maybe, I can't remember, whenever I ran with Chad. This is kind of a funny story, but we use the same port-a-pot at the same time, so it was like mile 17. We both had to use the restroom and it was one that had a urinal and a toilet. We jumped in there and you know, I had, I think, the year I ran it by myself in 23, I had used the restroom at mile 18 and it was probably here's what people get, and this is easier for guys because we don't have some other.
Speaker 2:You know, but like, you normally will make up at least 50% of the time, especially if it's just peeing, speeding back up, like you're going to get that burst of speed that you normally do when you start back up. So you're, you might lose 15 seconds. Um, it was the year that I ran like two, 50, 19 or something. I would have been furious had I not already broken two, 50, but like, I went to the bathroom, mile 18. And I again, I think I probably lost 13 or 14 seconds, so it's happened. Sometimes, though, it's worth holding on for a bit. I've had races where, like right away, I feel like I have to go, and then by mile seven or eight it disappears. So I have had those points in time. But when we ran Boston in 18, I had to stop once or twice and catch up with you guys.
Speaker 1:Which was no problem because I was in the group. Yeah, I've only had to use the restroom a couple of times, but it absolutely happens and you just hold on as long as you can, and if you can't hold on, you can't hold on. What about caffeine? Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. We haven't said this yet, but the number one rule of race day that is above any other rule on race day is don't do anything you haven't done before. That's the trick, right? You wake up on race day and you're like, ooh, and you get this great idea and you're like, ooh, I'm going to try this. I haven't, I haven't eaten this. You know, I bet this would be really good calories or you know something, cause you're, you're there and you see something that all the supplements at the race. So, like you get the, a stinger waffle, and you have never seen those or something else, you're like, ooh, I bet this would be really good. Don't do anything that you have never done before. That applies to what you're eating, what gels and when you said caffeine, I made the mistake Sometimes.
Speaker 1:Look at the gels. I don't drink caffeine and I accidentally grabbed two gels that were caffeine. One, one marathon. I was grabbing different flavors, but some of the flavors are only in caffeine and some aren't. It was like, oh, that sounds good. And then I you know stomach wise that burned for several miles, um, after I ate those. But I had no, no option, I had to, I had to do that. So, um, caffeine, I think it just depends on whether or not you consume it regularly. If you do, I think that's okay. If you don't, don't do anything you haven't done on race day before.
Speaker 2:They do say that caffeine is a performance enhancer. But again, I would to his point. You know, for me I'll use it later in the race, so, cause I normally have coffee in the morning anyways, uh, so I'm riding off of that and then you know, the first couple of gels, you know, or I'll swap it in and out, because the last thing I want is 300 milligrams of caffeine on top of the 100 I've already had and have an adverse reaction on my stomach. So at most I'll do half calf and then half not. But yeah, I do think it's really important to practice your fueling and find if you don't like the consistency of whatever it is you're using. If you're a gel person, there are so many options out there. A lot of people don't like the consistency of, say, a goo it's way too thick, and so they're just like I'm not going to take it. Well, there's SIS, there's Morton, there's I can't remember, there's another one we used to use. But like, there are multiple options out there. So there's something for you, I know. You know, no matter how ridiculously talented you know, someone may think they are. Fuel is such an important strategy and you see that with the professional athletes it's such a like if a pro athlete misses a bottle, it's something that announcers will call out or that they'll call out in a post-interview press conference Like, oh, I missed a bottle at mile whatever, because it's so, you know, acutely dialed to their physiology and ensuring they have a good performance.
Speaker 2:You know, I guess we could go a little bit deeper here. You know, I think this is also applicable, you know, I mean, to game day mindset too. You know and I'd like to kind of throw this your direction because I think you know me personally at times I struggle to race as much as I should. I just kind of opened up about that in terms of not really racing over the last year. Much Goodness.
Speaker 2:I think the last actual race of any distance was potentially when we ran the Mini, and that was almost a year ago and that was a half marathon. So I haven't really done anything since last May from a length perspective, anything since last May from a length perspective. So I have trouble like looking forward and embracing and wanting to race and wanting to test myself. But I know you've been involved in so many sports over the years and seem to rise to the occasion more often than not, so like from a mental perspective. You know, when it comes to soccer or basketball or whatever it is you're playing, what kind of got you fired up and got you in the right mindset to tackle those types of things?
Speaker 1:I would say preparation. There was a confidence, there was experience. Those are the. I think the things in basketball it was, there was just, I guess also I wasn't afraid to fail in those realms. I think the things in basketball it was, there was just, I guess also I wasn't afraid to fail in those realms. I think that's really good what you guys talk about from a failure standpoint. When I went out there, you know, especially in basketball, like you always had the butterflies until the first tip went up and then you settled in, you knew what you were going to do, you knew your role.
Speaker 1:It probably repetitions, the running things are interesting for me because I don't feel like I've ever figured it out. I've always feel like I either it was caffeine I was like this and then I took a dive or I was at a calorie deficit, I didn't have the energy. I'm not willing to admit that I'm not mentally tough enough and that I've actually faltered because I couldn't mentally get through the wall versus actual fatigue. But the way I've approached any other sport in my life is I just showed up and I went as hard as I could, as long as I could, and I was able to make an impact in running. There's so much at play and it's for such a long period of time. I have never, I believe, reached my potential on race day because of some type of fuel issue. Talk, too, about injuries. I mean race day injuries are a big thing. We alluded to them very briefly earlier, but you have had some issues with that.
Speaker 1:Um, I know in Phoenix, uh Phoenix I couldn't get out of the car, like all of a sudden my right side was paralyzed. I was in a in a weird spot Like I couldn't run. Um, yeah, I've I've had a fair share of of injuries, just like I think everyone run. Yeah, I've had a fair share of injuries, just like I think everyone else, and we try to run through them. I think it's a lack of kind of core strength, so I've focused on doing more core stuff. But there's been a couple times in my life where I felt like I was in good enough shape to make a run at three hours and, for whatever reason, I never got anywhere close to it.
Speaker 2:Well, you did break your ankle.
Speaker 1:What are you about race day injuries? I mean, I think that's kind of a tough thing. You have things that I think certainly over a training block usually there's one or two nagging things that are relevant that you have to work through. And I know we have used Temple Sports Rehab and some guys at St Vincent Sports Performance and I know we have used um tempo sports rehab and some guys at uh, st Vincent sports performance and I work with John Grant and those guys to to help through those. I think injuries in general being ready for that and cause those things build over the course of a training cycle right Like they compound and they a lot of times people find they start to to to manifest shortly before the marathon and then you're put in a really tough position. So obviously there's some importance to being prepared and tending to those throughout the training block. But what's your rule for dealing with injuries on race day? How have you handled that?
Speaker 2:Well, you do bring up a point that's probably good to address, and that's the taper injuries.
Speaker 2:Because when you start, to taper, typically the week before injuries, because when you start to taper, typically the week before, things are going to start to pop up, and a lot of that is is little, little tweaks that have been masked because of just more more broad reaching pain across the body or soreness. Those I typically try to ignore. Um, but you know, one thing to keep in mind is and more often than not you see people stretching their calves at marathons that's what you had problems with, if I don't remember right, was your calves, and I think what happens there is in training. Typically you have your fast stuff and then you have your long runs, and I know traditionally it's a little different now. People just used to go run long, it didn't matter 8.30, 9 minute, 9.30, 10, 10, whatever. It's kind of an easier pace and whatever. Well then you're like oh, I'm going to jump in and run this race and it's 26 miles and I did a 20 at nine minute pace and I'm expecting to run seven.
Speaker 2:That is tension that you've never put on that muscle and I remember experiencing it for the first time myself in probably 2014 or 15, I had done that. All of my long runs had been 830 pace, nine pace, and I was trying to break three or at least go under seven minutes a mile for average, and I remember at like mile 18, my calves just just felt like rocks and it was because. And so afterwards I got on forums like what's going on, is it an electrolyte thing? Am I cramping because I'm not hydrated enough or my electrolyte balance isn't right? And they're like overwhelmingly the response was and this was the advanced running forum, reddit on Reddit, which is a lot of times like anything on Reddit, it's got its issues but like a really good resource for people that are really experienced and they're like no, this is an overloading issue.
Speaker 2:So it kind of goes back to don't do things you haven't done. Maybe do your long runs a little bit harder. But yeah, I mean during prep, for sure, tend to things, especially again back to the rule of thumb from a couple episodes ago if it gets worse while you're running, you need to get it looked at right away. You'd be surprised how quickly you can work through certain things. I think people have injuries pop up and they don't want to deal with them because they're afraid that they've put nine weeks or 12 weeks in on a plan and that somebody's going to tell them to stop, and there are people out there who will do everything but that because they do understand what it means to somebody to accomplish a marathon and or, uh, a goal within that you know realm that they want to achieve.
Speaker 1:And it's expensive to like to go to some of these.
Speaker 1:You know you might pay a hundred dollars an hour to get someone, um, and so I would just say expectations, set aside250, $300 for, you know, the second half of the training block, being able to go see somebody to work through some of these things. They're brilliant, brilliant people. They know the body so well and everyone that goes is blown away by how quickly they're able to pinpoint the issue and work through some things to keep people running. Pinpoint the issue and work through some things to keep people running. So I just that was. You know, the first two times I tried to do it on my own and then the third time I actually engaged some help and that's how I ultimately got to the start line the first time.
Speaker 1:What about shoes? Cause you brought up outside of the fatigue. I did have a lot of cramping in that race in Arizona a couple of Januaries ago. But you train in certain shoes and then all of a sudden, most of us put on the race shoes, we put on the 4%ers or whatever they're called now, and they have a different pitch and they're faster, and I was convinced that maybe those had they caused, cuz I wasn't used to running and something of that.
Speaker 1:So how do you approach? You know race shoes, that what they. You get a hundred miles out of them depends on the shoe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, for me, I, how I train, I do do my hard training runs in race shoes. Because of exactly that, right now I'm going through a very interesting time with racing shoes. I've raced traditionally, you know. We were lucky enough to be around when the original Nike 4%ers came out, which was 2018, 17, 18, somewhere in there. Four percenters came out, which was 2018, 17, 18, somewhere in there, and so I've run, I think, just about every single race in a version of the Vaporfly. So four percenters, next percenters Vaporfly it's all the same line. And I think one time I've run in the Alpha Flies, but I've always raced in Nike shoes, save one 10K. And over the last year I'd train more in the Adios Pro 3, which is Adidas racing shoe, and then most recently, started training in the Asics Metaspeed Sky and the Metaspeed Edge, depending on the type of workout I was doing.
Speaker 2:And last week this kind of goes to Todd's point about not trying something new I've been having because of these injuries. I've been having to do a little bit more treadmill work and a little bit more hiking than I'm typically used to, and most of that treadmill work has been in these Metaspeed Sky shoes and I felt really good. Well, I went and ran in those in the workout I referenced earlier two Fridays ago and I felt terrible. And of course I go right to that's the shoes. Man, I gotta get different shoes, you know it's, they're not cut out. So I go and I get the new Saucony Endorphin Elite 2 and I've never run in those and so I do the same thing. I go out and I run, uh, four by two, and I have blisters all over my right foot and I have different areas of soreness that I'm not used to. And then I go in and I try them on the treadmill, the new Endorphin Elites, and that's not working. I feel unstable, I feel like my foot strikes weird.
Speaker 2:And so now I'm on pair three, which is the Adios Pro 4s. But I'll probably eventually, if I can, because the new next percents are really hard to get I would say for me. I know this is a long way to get there, but doing the harder workouts in the shoes, and once you find a pair of race shoes that you know you can perform in at all costs, unless they're paying, you really spend time in the alternatives Don't just. Like you know, I regret now jumping between three pairs of shoes, but I got you know, and so that would be my recommendation from a ratio perspective. Um, find what you you like and, if you can afford it, do all of your hard workouts in them. It's it's, it's very expensive endeavor, but that's what the pros do, because it does save your legs.
Speaker 1:Can we talk a little bit about supplements? There's a lot of places out there now that do these IV bags or put testosterone in your packs or shots. What do you guys take on that? Have you ever tried any of that stuff? Does it help with recovery? I would say no.
Speaker 2:No, you haven't tried it or no, you don't believe in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sorry. Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I have not tried any of that. You know in terms of certainly like a liquid IV or different things like that, which is not that's just a. For those that don't know, it's just like a mix that has high electrolytes and salt in it. But I have not done really anything on the supplement side, although I know there are some things that have been proven to increase, increase performance pretty meaningfully.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if you are tackling all of the majors sleep, clean nutrition, proper fueling from a calorie perspective, calorie in, calorie out, gut training for food, like all of those major things, hydration, electrolyte balance if you've got all those nailed down, you know, I've, I've seen people you know like especially men our age, doing trt right where they what's that?
Speaker 2:uh, testosterone. So you know whether that's you know um, slow dissolving pellets or you know other other forms of ingesting that particular hormone, and I've I've heard I feel like a million bucks, but I've never heard anybody say, oh yeah, my marathon time went through the roof. There are some things that are starting to gain traction that people are saying are providing significant benefits, like sodium bicarb. But that's a touchy one because one of the like it can have catastrophic effects on your stomach. So if you get your dosing wrong you'll lose any benefit in the toilet Like it's just everybody that I've heard this tried it. There are some people that speak its praises. It's kind of like altitude training in a sense that some people are high responders, some aren't. But it helps your body buffer lactate. But I've heard people I had a buddy who's tried it he's like it's amazing. But the first time you use it, be close to a restroom until you figure out your dosing. So sodium bicarb is something you know.
Speaker 2:I know some people. I know we both know people that have done like like those IV drips and gotten all of those extra vitamins, minerals, supplements intravenously. But I think those same people have more recently, like it was a fad. You know they did it for a couple of times but, like in terms of doing it before running a race, didn't really make much of an impact or performing just as well without things like that. So you know there are some things. We're doing some research right now. Beetroot extract is something that promotes blood flow. There's other things out there that are supposed to increase blood plasma volume and hemoglobin mass. So you know there are things out there but, like most people aren't tackling those big things we talked about off the jump. You know they need to tackle those first and then, you know, if you're at the absolute peak, then start worrying about sodium bicarb.
Speaker 1:What other tactics have you guys used to get through the walls? On race day we talked a little bit about the mental tapering and certainly the physical tapering and kind of managing that threshold and trying to win that moment. But what other tactics have you used to try and get through those walls? I mean it can be debilitating in that moment. Music, prayer, music's an important one. I mean to the point where I think we've all discussed this, where you will time certain songs to come up at certain times of the race. That's what else I was saying.
Speaker 1:Even prayer or having something like it was like pray for someone different each mile, or something like that. Like I've done a few times which, again, I've never really just shattered the wall, um, but when I get to those moments I have to stop thinking about running and how much, because the problem with the wall is it happens with 10 miles left. If you hit the wall with three miles left, like I'm at that point where you can do anything for three miles, but with 10 miles left it seems like an eternity away. So trying to, you know, chunk through that. And then the times that I've been with you guys, you've psychologically confused me enough to drag me along to where I don't even know what's going on. So I would say those would be the big ones for me.
Speaker 2:Compartmentalization.
Speaker 2:I mean the mantra right, I think it's Ali's run the mile you're in.
Speaker 2:Compartmentalization is big kind of knowing where you're at, being able to Normally normally I keep my mind busy enough that I'm always thinking about something, so you know, when it gets harder at the end I'm just like, okay, five minutes is the next gel, and then that gets me okay.
Speaker 2:Then the next mile is in a minute and a half and normally for me, as crazy as this sounds, if I'm paying attention to it, you know your watch gets off from the actual clock mile. So you're like, okay, my watch mile ends in a quarter and then the next mile marker on the course is a quarter mile after that, and then my next gel is five minutes after that. So there's all of these like, okay, just look forward to this. And all of a sudden you're breaking it up into two minute increments, five minute increments, 10 minute increments, and it's. It's more chunkable and digestible that way versus oh. And I made a mistake once we were running Chicago and I looked over at Chad and I'm like, dude, only an hour left and he wasn't in the spot right then to hear that I felt great at the time.
Speaker 2:I mean, mean, and the crazy thing was I separated from him and he was. I turn around at the finish line. He was like 20 seconds behind me so he held on in his white cotton t-shirt dude's amazing, just finished the six stars, but uh, so he and christy are our six star finishers. But yeah, I would take compartmentalization as big and I use music like you guys do. Um, I'll put on a chill playlist for the first half of the race until that moment hits, whether that's 15, 18 miles, and then I turn on like, okay, now it's race time and I know a lot of guys that do that. The other thing I want to call out that addresses this, but I think is a much bigger help, is what is your purpose? So I know you guys have heard this story, but I'll kind of tell it to our listeners.
Speaker 2:So last year, going into Boston was kind of similar. I had a decent build, but it was going to be hot and I just didn't know where I was and it was kind of a good thing, right, I wasn't putting a lot of pressure on myself. Um, I had run this race six times before. Five times before. It was kind of like you know, my C goal I'd be fine with. And I knew a friend of mine was out there and he and I'm like, but he's, he was running a lot of miles at the time, like a hundred miles a week, and he was considerably faster than I was. And I'm like, well, I just hope I don't run into him, because I don't want to run with this guy because he's going to destroy me and whatever.
Speaker 2:Well, we're checking in and out of the 30,000 people of Boston. I'm going to get my packet and the guy next to me in line is this guy Shout out Chris Galloway. And I'm like you're kidding. And he's like, oh yeah, what do you want to run tomorrow? I'm like I don't know we should run together. And I'm thinking in my head like, no, oh, my God, I'm going to get. You know, I'm going to go out too hot, like you talked about bank, all this and by 15 miles I'm gonna be walking. And I'm like, yeah, sure, dude, will I catch up? I'll see you tomorrow. Well, I don't ever carry my phone with me, so I'm like there's no way. Like there's 30 000 people at this race, um, you know, 20 000 of which we're going to be in the in the waiting area with. There's no way.
Speaker 2:So we get there last minute because we've got this thing down to a science, having done it a number of times and we get to, basically, the waiting area is two football fields essentially, and they call our wave wave one. And we're walking over and I just hear TJ and I got my. I'm like, oh no, and I'm like, you know, I convinced myself. Convinced myself. I'm like, if by happenstance I run into him, I I know that I can hold the pace he wants to hold for the half, I I can do that, I know I can do that. So if you know we can run, he wanted to run 630s or something like I can hold that for the half, that's fine. And so we end up talking. We have have a great conversation, we walk to the start line and I'm just like not sure it's right.
Speaker 2:So we start off and he's like let's just run it blind for the first couple of miles. So we're running it blind and I looked out at my watch at one point and we're like running 640s, something like that. I'm like okay, and we get six, seven miles in and and then we get a little further in and he's he's starting to have some issues. And I noticed like he's quiet. This is strange, okay. And so my mindset at this time is shifting, like huh, well, I didn't have a purpose, I'm here running this just to run it again. You know, I started this race in a mindset that was completely negative, that I was going to blow up. But something's not right with him today. And so he's like yeah, I've been having some GI issues, I'll get through it.
Speaker 2:And then we get to Heartbreak. Well, the hills, the Newton Hills For those of you who aren't familiar, there's four hills towards the end of the Boston Marathon that are excruciating and they run for about four miles and they're legendary just because they've had such a profound effect on certain, you know professional races, you know up front of the marathon. And so we get there and at this point he's really quiet and, having run numerous races, I know what's going on, like I know he's in pain on, like I know he's in pain. And for me that gave me purpose and it was like, okay, let's lock in. And I'm like. I looked over at him and I'm like we got this, I'm not leaving you, we're going to get there. And we ended up running 255 or something like that. Um, you know, and Chris knows this, you know Chris is head and shoulders above me as it relates to the most race distances that we run, because he puts in more work.
Speaker 2:And we had a conversation after the finish line. He's like, well, what do you think you could have run? And like he felt like he held me back. But what he didn't realize is he gave a race that didn't have any purpose at all. Massive purpose, and it's one of the races I look back on the most fondly. Massive purpose, and it's one of the races I look back on the most fondly because you know it was something where I was questioning, you know, and looking for a why, and I found one. So I say all that to say if you're going into a race and you're nervous, look for a different purpose, and I'd like to pitch that to you because we were talking the other day. The FOMO is coming up in about seven weeks and you made the comment that potentially, what you want to do is look for a couple of people who've never run 50K and run it with them, and I think that that is a brilliant approach to this race. So maybe you can talk more about your mindset as it relates to that.
Speaker 1:I can say some of my favorite marathons have been ones that haven't been driven on a personal goal. Disney was fun, we did. Disney. Shout out to John Faust. He wanted to run his first marathon. We ran and he wanted to break five hours and he broke it. And then the next year he wanted to run his first marathon. We ran and he wanted to break five hours and he broke it. And then the next year he wanted to run and break four hours and we broke it. We had to lie to him for the first, the last four miles. We're like just one more, just one more. Uh. So shout out to John but um, yeah, I, I have my, my marathons where I've been able to take it a little bit easier and and help someone else achieve their goal have definitely been more meaningful, and maybe I say that a little bit out of fear of trying to chase my own Um, but I, I know for the full mo.
Speaker 1:I'm having a really hard time transitioning back into the mileage. I'm really tired and I'm trying to get in the 40 and 50 miles and crank back up and stay healthy and then even to do it and to be willing to sacrifice. I was running down on the treadmill the other night. My son wanted to have a friend over and we called him and his dad was bringing him over. His dad's a good friend of mine and they were both coming over to play and I'm just like this is more important. So I shut her down after my mile and I went upstairs. So I'm going through some mental battles to get there.
Speaker 1:And what I love of what you said is I think when you have a better, you have a different purpose. It makes it different. I have no purpose at this point in time to run it outside of. I said I would Supporting you in the race and there's no other meaningful goal. I don't feel like training to run it fast or anything else. It's more about the experience. It's been a long time for me since I put myself out there to actually compete in running. I don't think I've ran a race since Mom's Race.
Speaker 2:That was November of 20. Well outside of Arizona.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean yeah I'm sorry, mom's race.
Speaker 1:Yes, 23, okay yeah, january of 23. So arguably I haven't run a race in 26 months and this run every day thing has taken to where I would never go out and run less than six miles, and six miles is is just like I wouldn't even get get out of bed for three. Well, now I've been running shorter distances. I'm finding to get myself to run four miles is like mentally a lot right. So I'm in a completely different shift right now of trying to get myself back and how hard it is to mentally prepare. I'm not wanting. I'm fighting everything in my being to make myself go through with this next seven or eight weeks training. It'll be interesting to see how that evolves closer to the race and if I can find someone that's willing to put in the work with me, it's going to be great.
Speaker 1:I do have a good running buddy. A shout out to Kyle Beal that is training for a 50 miler, so he's putting in some longer distances and we're going to continue to meet up a couple of times a week. But I love what you said about purpose. I do think being the coach on the field with someone is a definitely a great way to kind of stay distracted or stay motivated to to help in someone achieve their goal. There have been studies that show that you are able to dig deeper for others than you are able to your for your own gain. Like to for your own gain.
Speaker 1:That's a very common. I mean, you've even talked in some of your ultras, At least one. I remember the story of like you're, like, I'm not going to quit because my kids are going to see me. You almost died.
Speaker 2:Yeah, knob on 50 miler. Yeah, knob on 50 miler. May of 16.
Speaker 1:I think there is merit to when you're hitting those walls, making sure you're very clear on your why, your purpose and whether or not you're actually running with somebody or you're feeling like you have an opportunity to inspire somebody else or set an example. I think a lot of times those can help you get through those walls. Use what you can, but those can help you get through those walls more than look at me. I'm going to be this hero if I can push through this wall.
Speaker 2:That's a very fleeting motivation you know what I think would be fun to talk about. I think we've got some time left in the episode. I think we've said this a lot and we've lived this a lot. You have no idea what your body is capable of, and I'd love to talk about when we were in Tennessee.
Speaker 1:It's a bigger race.
Speaker 2:It's a bigger race, it's a longer race, but that is for me, I think, what defined. So, just to be clear, it took me seven years to break three hours in the marathon and this was part of that process. I think I broke it two years after this or three, I don't remember. But you know, in July of 2015, we ran across the state of Tennessee.
Speaker 1:We.
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:I helped drive across the state of Tennessee. You and the mouse in your pocket ran across the state of Tennessee.
Speaker 2:And it's a six day race and it was filled with a lot of challenges. But you know, for me, that really gave me insight into what the body is capable of doing if you listen to it and if you believe in it. You know there was a lot of challenges faced in that race and again, this is a macro view right, because this is a, as it relates to finding a different why or finding a different motivator, and, for one of the very few times in my life, I would say, every day was met with a pretty significant issue that we ended up solving for.
Speaker 1:Were you down there for any of it. All right, I'm taking over the story. So TJ signs up for a 500K. That's 310 miles, 314.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 311, whatever.
Speaker 1:Okay so 314 miles. He signs up for a 500K and we all I would say you didn't. I don't know how you prepare for that, but I would say you weren't as prepared as, and so this is in. We live in Indiana, this is flat Indiana and we're going to the Rolling Hills of Tennessee, so mom was down there the first couple of days and you guys start the race and cross this bridge and it's like what?
Speaker 2:80 degrees outside. Oh, it's like 180, it was probably.
Speaker 1:It was probably somewhere between 95 and 105 so at some point and you can tell me what, when it was you guys transitioned to running nights and sleeping days. When was that? Was that?
Speaker 2:after the first day yeah, day one, it was mom and it was Todd 11.
Speaker 1:They were there day one.
Speaker 2:And Todd had come down from Detroit. Mom had driven down with me. She could only stay for one day and 20 miles in at that bridge and the bridge it's actually renowned in this race because it smells like pure sewage I had run with the leaders. At this point I was nowhere in shape to run with the leaders. Johan Steen was one of the leaders, greg Armstrong was one of the leaders and they're two of the best ultra runners in the history of the sport.
Speaker 2:My body locked up completely because I didn't know how to hydrate and I didn't know how to. And I remember, because my caves, my calves, were caved in and my, my abs were flexed and they had to pick me up and put me in the car because I couldn't move anymore. Um, and I remember I was in tears because I felt so bad that these people had come down to watch me race and to help me for six days.
Speaker 2:And here I am, 20 miles 290 miles to go yeah 280 miles to go and I'm in the car and I'm just in tears and I'm crying to mom and I was, I don't know I was 15. So I was 35 years old at the time. So at that point we went back to the hotel. Just for future reference, whenever I leave the course, I can go to the hotel, just just for future reference. Whenever I leave the course, I can go to the hotel, but they have to drop me off where I left off. You go back to the hotel. I rehydrate, ate a, I ate a couple subway sandwiches and then that's when we began running at night, because it was 100 degrees and it was just too hot during the day I show up day three.
Speaker 2:You showed up super late on day two, okay.
Speaker 1:So I'm flying down, I'm like I've seen TJ do the hundred miler by this point and he needs a crew and for whatever reason I was able to get away and I come down and there's a couple of points that I'm going to hit and you can add in. So, like, the first thing we kind of dealt with was chafing. We, we looked for every solution of chafing. We had the. There is like duct tape that has like a sticky side you can put it on either side of your legs to keep with chafing. We had tried all kinds of lube for chafing and we finally realized, after we thought about it a little bit, chafing happens when you're sweating and then all of a sudden you stop sweating and it gets dry.
Speaker 1:So, like, what we found out is he would start running at like four and he would sweat between four and maybe six or seven, which was when it was still hot out, and then if you switched shorts, you're fine. So those of you that struggle with chafing, as long as you stay, like if you're sweating profusely and you stay wet the whole time, you're not going to chafe. It's when you dry out and don't change your shorts, that's when it starts to cause a problem. So that was a big one, cause I mean again, you're a couple hundred miles out and your legs are raw. Like how in the world are you like? Oh yeah, I got some chafing, I got a few miles left, I have 200 miles left, you know. I mean so that, like those in those long races, those little minute nuances can become massive problems.
Speaker 2:Well, that was what was so cool for me, right? Because you know the first. So day two, the first thing that got to me was my feet. And what they tell you in races like that is it takes your body about three days to realize it's not going to end. So, like the first three days, your body's fighting you. It's like I don't want to do this. This isn't normal. But about three days in your body's like, okay, you're going to do this every day. We're going to adapt.
Speaker 2:And I remember my feet were on fire. I had asked you to bring down other shoes for me, um, cause I was running an ultra boosts and this these are the fashion ultra boosts that you see today, but back then they were, like you know, good running shoes. I had you bring them, I hope is, down Cause my feet hurt so bad from these rolling Hills and being on pavement for a hundred miles. I remember seeing you, um, I remember the curve on the road and it was. It was probably 45 miles into the day. I think we did 56 and we stopped because of chafing. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was waterproof duct tape because it was metal on one side, it's sticky on the other.
Speaker 1:It was awful so we go through that and then we get to, I want to say, the 150 range, 170 range, and he's been running these hills and for those of you that don't run hills, you realize that amount of mileage. And that was it. You had shin splints I had perineal tendonitis.
Speaker 1:There it is yeah, okay, perineal tendonitis, and he's like I think the same emotions were coming back of like everyone's come down here, I can't move, you're excruciating, excruciating, I mean. And so you know what we decided to solve this problem we shut her down and we went to a orthopedic place the next morning.
Speaker 2:We went to the walk-in clinic. First Walk-in clinic you guys had found the walk-in clinic.
Speaker 1:first Walk-in clinic.
Speaker 2:You guys had found a walk-in clinic, because that night I remember we had gone out. I think we did 30 miles that day and I remember at the end I was walking backwards, I was sidestepping, I'm like and I think part of it was I switched from those ultra boost to the hokas and and the thing is, you're running on a camber, you think about running on the side of the road, it's tilted, so you're running on the side of the road and you're putting pressure and stress on the outside Perineal tendon runs on the outside of your ankle and you're putting pressure and stress. And I remember all of that and like just, and yeah, you were like, well, let's shut it down. I saw a walk-in clinic and so then yeah, you were like, well, let's shut it down.
Speaker 1:I saw a walk-in clinic and so then so I went to the walk-in clinic. They really I think they told us to shut it down. We're like, no, we're not doing that. So then we went to an orthopedic specialist, got in and he gave us good news, but probably not the best news he goes. Well, he goes. I can give you some pills for some of the pain he goes. I can give you some pills for some of the pain he goes. The truth is is it's you're not going to damage yourself long-term and it's not going to get any worse, but it's going to be painful, and so you got to stomach it. This may help with some of the pain, but it's really well yeah he kind of said it's up to you.
Speaker 1:But he knew, like on a scale of one to 10, it's like an eight Right, and we're sitting. So think about this perinatal tendinitis. You're at an eight in pain, you have 150 miles left, 150. So, like I'm going to have this, what if you're in a marathon and you had five miles left? We're talking 150 miles left. So he gives us that diagnosis. And that was during the day, and we decided to start going again that night, right, and that's when you met.
Speaker 2:Well, we were in the parking lot of the hotel and I remember trying to convince myself that I could run in the parking lot Cause I had taken. It was it was this dose pack of prednisone or steroids or something you know, where you take like 10 the first day and then nine and so on and so forth or how whatever it is five, four, three, two, one and um. I remember starting walking, two, one and um. I remember starting walking. I was listening to a podcast, um, and I just I think that was the day I was furious. Um, I think you met me this is another, like getting through it.
Speaker 2:You met me in the parking lot of a seven 11 because you, you weren't allowed to pace this race. Um, you could crew but you weren't allowed to pace this race. You could crew, but you weren't allowed to pace it and I was so mad. I remember calling you and this is tough because when you're in races like this and you're on that edge, I was taking it out on everybody else. I didn't come here to effing walk this thing. Anybody can walk this thing. I was just furious and I remember you coming down and being like you know, we believe in you. You got this Like let's just take it easy. I think we hung out for a little bit and then the next thing I remember is we got to this road and it was like 20 miles in. I remember back then we had those Best Buy Bluetooth around the here headsets and I remember calling you because it hurt so bad.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'm like I just need to talk to you while I do this, because and then for miles. And then we decided it was too bad. I was going to shut it down at 26 that day and at 25, I started running and all of a sudden the pain went away. It was the weirdest thing. And then, that's when I ran into Thomas, thomas Alm, the pain went away. It was the weirdest thing.
Speaker 1:And then that's when I ran into Thomas. Thomas Alm shout out. And so, yeah, I remember that like super frustrated, talking to him, coaching him through, just trying to keep him motivated and positive, just keep moving forward. And when he caught, when him and Thomas met up, it was like it was like Jesus, they came together.
Speaker 1:At this point in time I'm supposed to be catching a flight to Vegas to be with my wife for some birthday party for friends and I call her. I said, honey, I can't fly home to fly out with you, I will see you there. Like I've got to see this through and TJ and Thomas run back to back double marathons. It was one of the most incredible, inspiring. I just I can't even. I still think about it. It gives me chills. They went 52, 56, and it was just like I just couldn't even believe it was happening.
Speaker 1:I remember when going back to the, I did like I had to pick you up and set you in an ice bath that night. I mean, you were completely destroyed. But what an incredible experience about what the body can do. And seeing that and the 100 miler are reasons to why sometimes, when I started running marathons, I'm like surely I can do that if you can do that. So I think it does set not only for yourself that it set a level of dedication and pain tolerance. It also does it in other people as well.
Speaker 2:Well, it gave us. It gave us, you know, it gave me reasons and you guys did a great job at architecting. You know, motivation, like when you know you waited till the second to last day to show me Facebook, right, and you're like, check this out, and there were like 150 comments. I'm like let's go, let's go, let's go, and out. And they're like 150 comments on like let's go, let's go, let's go, and so seeing all of that support externally, and then you know, I remember sitting in the the last hotel room, and it was it was awful, and you were, and my foot.
Speaker 2:We hadn't made it yet my foot was a mess, yeah and todd had flown back to detroit for a uh, an appointment for his son and back to Tennessee and I remember him walking in the door and you were behind me and you told me after the fact you were telling him don't say anything about the foot.
Speaker 2:Like because it was black and blue, but I remember seeing you guys, man, you and Thomas and his crew at the time I can't remember her name and we came in after that second double marathon or the first one, and Thomas was like this isn't sweat, it's tears, but it was cool because there were so many. You don't realize how many different mechanisms there are to keep yourself motivated and to help digest something that you think is impossible. And yeah, there are to keep yourself motivated and to help digest something that you think is impossible.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, the context that that sets from a pain perspective, from a capability perspective, it just opens up a whole new stratosphere. And if you could develop something that could, like when I was going to quit my streak when I was in Vail a few weeks ago quit my streak when I was in Vail a few weeks ago, I was just so tired and everything. And once I got TJ's text message, I'm like I can't stop, like there could be something invented to pump you with those real-time messages as you're running, because when you think about the people that believe in you or that are encouraging you or your family, or because it's one thing, again, to do it for yourself, but having that support in those moments are 10xers, in my opinion, and you normally don't get them until like, oh, you did a good job at the end. But like there's been times where I've been watching people and I'm like, come on, you got this, you got this. Like our buddy tim was, he broke his pr and I saw him going and I'm like I'm on the other end, just like, come on, you can do it. You know, just super excited for them and to be able to hit them in real time with? That be unbelievable. Why don't you grab that Boston TJ just mentioned?
Speaker 1:We're in very close proximity to Boston and while we're telling race stories, I feel like this is one that we maybe set it on that pillow there between the two of you. This was an unbelievable story. Probably has to be my favorite race. I'd love to go around and each person kind of mentioned their favorite race or race day stories, but this, this is up there. So we had all agreed we were going to try and qualify for Boston together. Trent was riding a dirt bike and broke his ankle but somehow still got in through the YMCA, so we were able to run Boston together, but we were getting to the start line in different ways. So I was riding, you were with Eric, I was with Eric, who's my brother-in-law. Shout out to Eric, as TJ mentioned, the science before the Boston Marathon, all architected by Eric. He and Amy and their son Camden now are great hosts and have been since. We've qualified for that. But I was riding with Eric. He dropped me off and you guys rode a bus, maybe from somewhere else, and we in.
Speaker 2:We're in runner's village marathon by the way, this is the legendary 2018 marathon, which is the worst weather in history of boston horrible.
Speaker 1:I hopefully we can find the picture of you running. It was, it was a headwind 20 some mile an hour headwind, if you know boston it's a point to point. You run from hopkington basically straight east into boston, uh, with some curves, and so we were running into a headwind, 20 plus miles an hour, it was in the 30s and it was raining. Uh, it was absolutely nightmare. So we get to um, was it marathon village?
Speaker 1:or yeah, yeah, it's called yeah there's 20, some thousand people, and I don't know why. We thought it was going to be easy to find each other, but somehow we went in different entrances.
Speaker 2:We didn't realize because there are two fields there's one field and then there's a secondary field. We didn't realize there were two fields because I in my first year in 17, I'd never gone to that second field and I think you were in the other field.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean, realize the six months building up to this. The only reason we're doing this is to run this race together, right? I mean all this anticipation Me and TJ are literally screaming for Todd down at our field. We're like Todd Todd, I mean, and we're standing. Mind you, it's been raining all day. Our feet were frozen up to our ankles. We're standing in a bud pool. We're standing in a bud pool. We are literally completely frozen from the ankle down. I couldn't feel my feet before the race started.
Speaker 2:It felt like blocks of wood for probably the first four or five miles. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:I'm frantically looking around trying to find you guys, because the idea of running this Boston alone was just incomprehensible. So I'm thinking to myself okay, well, what if I head to the start line? I mean, obviously, obviously, this is extended periods of time. We're talking half hour hour. We're kind of trying to find each other before they start to call people.
Speaker 2:And we're, but it's the last wave.
Speaker 1:at this point, Me and TJ are waiting for everyone to clear out, because we were like, okay, they clear out, we're going to find them, like we're waiting for, like the F wave. So I'm like psychologically a really good thing for us F wave so.
Speaker 1:I'm like, logically, a really good thing for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm thinking, okay, uh, I'm going to go to the start line and then if I can get there quickly, then I'll just look as people are going past and see, like people passing, and I was up there probably for I want to say 30 minutes and like I you don't want to talk about mentally depleting yourself Like I'm trying to scan the crowd, like in this way to like recognize faces, and you know I'm looking and looking and looking.
Speaker 1:I mean this goes on for 30 minutes. And then I could tell I wasn't going to find you guys because it started to get super sparse, like it was packed right, people were, it was wall to wall and then just kind of there were stragglers and this was, I don't know, again last wave getting ready to start and I think it was maybe Trent said like Todd, and I look, I think maybe it was over to my left and you guys were coming up to the start line. Oh, my goodness, talk about us. I mean, hands down, the most stressful pre-race experience in the midst of the weather. And then we, then we that was right at the start line and we went.
Speaker 2:We got a lot of weird looks from people like what are you doing back here? You know, because I mean typically in Boston the last wave is reserved for charity runners, walkers and walkers, and people were like what is going on? And as we're flying, trying to get back up to the front, I mean we were in that weather for six or seven hours. You think about it, all the waiting we did out there.
Speaker 1:It was a disaster. I mean, we were hypothermic. I remember finishing that race and you and I went up to a taxi and we're like how much to get to this hotel? And he's like, oh, it's just a quarter mile right down the way. And I'm like you don't understand, I'll give you a hundred dollars, how much to go to that hotel it was.
Speaker 1:I remember at the end of that marathon I sat, we got back to the hotel room and I sat on the. It was one of those that was showers. You just stood up and I sat on the floor of the shower for probably 20 to 25 minutes. I was so cold. But I mean the memories from that race I will never forget. I mean, trent, I was talking about one of. I mean, I would think from a performance perspective, this had to be one of your best races. Tj and I played some psychological games with you a little bit towards the end, which you alluded to, but I think you ran a sub 330 in that marathon and you had no business running a sub three 30. I think I broke my ankle 10 weeks prior to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were, we were trying to come up with something to get you ready, but it just wasn't going to happen.
Speaker 1:You were kind of. You kept asking about splits and I think we were giving you different times of what we were miling.
Speaker 1:One would up one would come back kind of check on me, but it was something about like that wasn't unbelievable. It was the only time I did. I did run boston with you guys and it was. It was incredible. The weather was I mean the wind and the rain and that, I think what I was most impressed. You always hear about boston and it kind of being the super bowl. In that weather it was still packed, people were cheering you on and there was like just this level of emotion of like people were going and we were doing this together. And then our whole team saw us on TV and we're holding hands coming across and and just to just to be part of that, when I got back to the hotel, I took that shower for like 20 minutes, got in bed and I remember like still going into convulsions because I was just mom and dad were there and the wind was like broke their umbrellas.
Speaker 1:It was so windy and some of our kids were there. Yeah, this is by far probably one of my favorite races, as well as probably the most adversity. Like again. Like you start with frozen feet, they start warming up and we were able to pass a lot of people because we started at the back, but overall, an experience that I'll never forget. A lot of people because we started at the back, but overall, an experience that I'll never forget.
Speaker 2:A lot of purpose in that race. Running it with you guys, that was really cool. I think the only other race that I would highlight was the 50-miler. That was pretty special. We raised $50,000 for MSA or something like that.
Speaker 1:I think at least $65,000.
Speaker 2:$65,000. That was really cool. Again back to purpose. You know, obviously for mom, but like there's so much of that out there If you look for it, your body's capable of so much If you listen to it. There are so many people out there that probably want to help you. So, like you know, there are ways to get through it that don't require just your own stubbornness and your own um, you know, there there are times when you need other people, and so I would say that you know that's something to keep in mind as you pursue the journey on race day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would also say the relay races. I mean, gosh the Ragnars, those are so fun to the relay races. Oh yeah, Gosh the Ragnars. Those are so fun to do in community. If you're struggling to show up on race day for yourself, do a Ragnar, Do some of the relay races. Some of the marathons have done a great job of making them relays. Does Carmel still have that?
Speaker 2:option. I think they still do.
Speaker 1:They've gone on and off, but I think it potentially they they kept it the last couple of years. Those are great opportunities to to more naturally position yourself to run for others on the team. Um, those are. Those were some fun races. So those ragnars? For those that don't know, it's a 12-man team, two vans, six-man vans. You have six runners that run. There's like 20, 36 segments. Each person has three segments somewhere in the four to six mile range and you just kind of keep going until you get there.
Speaker 2:Those are really, really fun races and you can make them as competitive as you want, but a lot of great memories, yeah, but if you want to get faster I mean, you know, if that's one of your goals then put together a competitive team and go do it. You will get so much more out of yourselves than you would ever imagine. I mean our race in minnesota. So in 20, oh boy, hell my god, 28, 2019, I think some, I don't know. It's whenever I turn 40. You guys had surprised me and that was kind of a 40th birthday present was the minnesota ragnar and we put together a group of 12 guys that we had one that I would consider an elite runner out of 12 people, and they were just a random hodgepodge of guys that went to high school together from the same county or related or whatever. And you want to talk about doing it for other people?
Speaker 1:not just race day, but training. Oh yeah, you're training and you know 11 other people are counting on you to be able to run a good time. That that will give you some extra juice. It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 2:Well, we ended up winning it, but by 20 seconds, which is crazy, but that brings up. I was telling the story the other day again about doing it for other people. You want to talk, you don't? I don't think you realize it when you're in it, but I realize it retrospectively. Ga 5K first year. You know it's one thing to train, but to get 24 people to run an hour a day as hard as they can for two weeks straight, as they can for two weeks straight, that's what shows you how much people will lay down for their community, and we saw it at Prairie.
Speaker 1:You were in the hospital there for a minute. Yep, you had ran.
Speaker 2:Just my GI system shut down. It was brutal.
Speaker 1:You had a kid during one, just my GI system shut down. It was brutal, but like you had a kid during one of them and you still ran, was it the first one? I think it, I think it. Gosh, I don't remember it would have been, it would have been, it would have been.
Speaker 2:Let's see.
Speaker 1:Grant would have been. It would have been Grant 2020. Yeah, june of 2020. Yeah it 2020.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was in the midst of the pandemic. Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. So it was todd ran his hour pre labor or during labor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was sitting up in the in the doctor, uh had come in and you know like I think she had already had her um, uh, what's the the epidural?
Speaker 1:no, not the epidural but no, not the epidural, but the something tosin pitocin yes and then you do the pitocin, you're trying to figure out how quickly it dilates and whatever. And so I think it was she had come in and she said the doctor had said you're still whatever two millimeters or something. You know, you should probably just get some rest. And I said, well, you know, since you get some rest, I'll let you. You know, just relax, I'll get out of your hair here and I'll go run. And she kind of gave me this look like I think she was. She was under enough influence of some sort of chemicals that she kind of was like okay, and I went out and I ran my mile and I don't know shortly I mean it was shortly after I got back that he came. I'm glad, because that stuff happens fast, right. It takes like forever to get to like three, and then all of a sudden it's like 10 and it's there.
Speaker 1:I probably got back I don't know, maybe 20 or 30 minutes before he was born, so it was close call. It was a close call, but we got it in for the community, for the team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great, yeah, really good stuff. So a lot on race day. I would just add a couple more things. Um, you know, I think you're right on a race day with training with uh, the shoes and having enough, because those, especially those race shoes, put a lot of stress on your calves.
Speaker 1:I will say, though, for me, a couple of race day tricks. I try to train without some of those things. I train without music and I try and train in regular shoes because it just gives me a boost on race day when I'm running out in those training runs and I'm able to achieve a certain level of fitness and training without some of the boosts. Then, when I get on race day and I can put those headphones in or maybe it's halfway through I'll put the headphones in. That gives me a whole nother level of motivation and things to tap into. And the same with the race shoes.
Speaker 1:If I'm running, you know usually the race shoes you can get somewhere between, I would say, 15 seconds give or take per mile. So if I'm doing a lot of my training and race shoes and I'm, you know, training to run at a certain time and I put on those race shoes race day, I wouldn't recommend this. If you've never worn race shoes, you should always kind of test that out. They do put a lot more stress on your calves but you know, I try and use them minimallyally and then when I get to race day it's just a bonus, it's an, it's an added boost. So I think sometimes training in more adverse conditions, um, and then race day, adding some of those things in, can be really helpful yeah, I would, you did.
Speaker 2:Uh, that'll be my last comment is you said training in adverse conditions, and I know people to do the same thing you do, and and so if again, if you've raced in these shoes before and it didn't have a huge detriment, then by all means, if that works better for you, but I would also this isn't necessarily a race day thing, but it's a leading up to race day thing Train in adverse conditions. Don't run all of your workouts downhill, downwind, and I know people that do it. Yes, you know. Make sure you face those adverse conditions, because you might face them at the race and if you don't, bonus. So I would encourage you to do that as well.
Speaker 1:Favorite training song or favorite song to come on during that wall. Favorite I shouldn't say training song, but favorite kind of pump-up song.
Speaker 2:I know what your guys' is. Well, we had talked about the Rudy one, but it's like favorite kind of pump-up song. I know what your guys' is.
Speaker 1:Well, we had talked about the Rudy one, but it's like a minute and 30 seconds long. I don't know some Jimmy Eat World, just something that's a little bit more upbeat. You could even go with 80s, your Def Leppards, your Metallica it's just something that's a little bit harder. I don't really have a go-to playlist that could get me through a long period of time.
Speaker 2:Mine was originally the Pretender by Foo Fighters years ago. Um, I have different songs for different intensities. If I'm full throttle it's probably Kickstart my Heart by Motley Crue. That's not necessarily a get me through it song, that's more of a, um, like let's rip it song. But those are two that come to mind.
Speaker 1:Everyone knows mine's eye of the tiger.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Uh, but I would say, um 10 feet tall by Afrojack is a good one. Hadaway life Um.
Speaker 2:I can't, don't you worry. Yeah, flex pavilion, yeah.
Speaker 1:So hopefully those are some helpful. Uh, if you're trying to curate a playlist for a spring race here, anything that you guys would add on shorter races. We spent a ton of time on marathons today and covered a little bit of ultras but anything on 5Ks, 10ks I know a lot of people run those Anything that you might add for those races that might be a little bit different.
Speaker 2:I mean those races. I think there's so many more variants and so much more variants in terms of goals, like a marathon is typically either to finish or to pr. From a time perspective, those are kind of the two things. Every now and then it'll be running with the friend and the social aspect of it. But like with the 5k, you know, there there are just so many more in my opinion like nuanced, different things and there's a lot. There's a there's so many more in my opinion like nuanced, different things and there's a lot. There's so many more different facets of a 5K that could be social and casual because of them, just by nature. But I would say for me a big race day thing for a 5K and this even kind of applies to the marathon.
Speaker 2:But warm up. If you are especially older, 35 plus, you know I used to. You know warm up for 20 minutes. You know the best 5ks and 10ks. I've ever run 20 minute warm-up. 25 minute warm. Do strides get your legs turning over. The more you prep your body for that, the more mechanically sound you're going to feel out the gate and it's going to benefit you tremendously. Don't feel like if I go do a 20 minute warmup before a 5k or a 10k. I'm going to blow my energy. You're not.
Speaker 1:That's so counterintuitive and it's so true and I always fought that. It's like I don't want to waste my legs going out and warming up, but to warm up your cardiovascular system. I'll never forget the first time I did a real warmup and those of you who wear Garmin watches a lot of times at the start of the race or start of a run, it'll tell you like plus two, minus two, like you know, based on the temperature and the weather and your condition. I remember I did like a 20 minute warmup with you guys on a half marathon and I got like a mile in and it said plus 10 because my heart rate was so low relative to what I was running, because I did such a solid warmup. And ever since that happened I don't know, it's probably a few, several, maybe four or five years ago Um, I've been all in on that, but it seems counterintuitive and it's more important in the shorter races.
Speaker 1:Not so much in the marathon, because you're naturally just going to rev up the engine, but on the shorter races you have got to warm up, some cases two miles three miles especially for people our age. If you're 20, maybe not as much, but yeah and get those strides and get.
Speaker 2:You can get your legs turning over. Do five, 10 second strides in the parking lot. Uh, for those faster races. It makes all the difference in the world, no doubt about it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. Race season is upon us, the spring is here. Hopefully you found some really good insights. There's been incredible insight. I've learned a ton today as I still believe I haven't figured out race day. So thank you guys for jumping in and we'll look forward to seeing you next time.