The Dailey Edge Podcast
Join hosts Trent, TJ, and Todd Dailey as they explore the intersections of technology, culture, fitness, and personal growth. Through engaging discussions and personal anecdotes, the trio dives into topics ranging from childhood gaming nostalgia and cutting-edge fitness tech to the pursuit of happiness and lifestyle choices. Whether reminiscing about epic gaming marathons, sharing tips for staying on the forefront of fitness trends, or unraveling the complexities of modern life, The Dailey Edge delivers thoughtful insights, lively debates, and relatable stories for listeners of all walks of life.
The Dailey Edge Podcast
Episode 10: Beyond the Starting Line: Maintaining Momentum When Motivation Fades
We dive into the challenges and strategies of maintaining long-term fitness motivation when the initial excitement fades away, sharing personal experiences of how we've sustained our running routines for over a decade despite injuries, busy schedules, and motivation dips.
• Success comes from finding sustainable approaches that fit your lifestyle rather than following extreme regimens
• Many fitness journeys get derailed by minor injuries that could be worked through with proper guidance
• Traditional medical advice often suggests complete rest, while sports medicine professionals understand the value of modified movement
• The human body's remarkable adaptability can mask unhealthy habits, normalizing suboptimal conditions
• Recovery metrics from wearable technology provide objective evidence of how nutrition, sleep, and alcohol affect performance
• Goal-setting, community support, and gamification create motivation when progress feels slow
• Balance between family responsibilities and self-care is essential—adequate recovery makes you more effective in other areas
• "Motion is lotion"—continuing to move appropriately is often better for joint health than complete inactivity
• Breaking goals into small, manageable chunks makes sustainable change possible
• The example you set with your fitness habits is being watched by your children
Find ways to keep exercise fresh and enjoyable by exploring new activities, changing environments, or adjusting training methods—sustainability comes from finding what works specifically for you.
Books & Authors
"Win, the Inside Game" by Steve Magness
"Atomic Habits" by James Clear (implied through "Atomic Habits" reference)
People
Hal Higdon (Marathon Training Programs from Runner's World)
Carl Meltzer (Renowned ultramarathon runner and coach)
Meb Keflezighi (Elite marathoner and Olympian)
Andrew Huberman (Implied reference to Huberman’s wellness protocols)
Arnold Schwarzenegger (Quote: "If the president has time to work out, you have time to work out.")
Michael Jordan (Discussed competitiveness and excellence mindset)
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK) (Mentioned in context of potential policy changes regarding processed foods)
Local or Personal Mentions
Jacob Crow (Physician, sports performance specialist)
John Grant (Sports performance specialist)
Websites, Apps, and Devices
Reddit (Social media reference)
Whoop Band (Wearable fitness and recovery tracker)
Oura Ring (Wearable sleep and recovery tracker)
Garmin (Fitness tracking devices)
Posture RX (Stretching/rehabilitation service or company, mentioned for effective quick exercises)
Orange Theory Fitness (Fitness studio mentioned for variety in training)
Welcome to the Daily Edge, where we bring you the latest how to continue to do things over a long period of time sustainability, things that you don't want to do but maybe you're training for a marathon or a race and it gets monotonous, and so I thought it would be a good dialogue where we could dive into this topic of just the mundane where we're constantly faced with, probably motivation issues. It's a lot of times easy to get started because you got that motivation, you got that passion, something happened and you got to live off of that high, but that high doesn't stay very long, so why don't one of you jump in and kind of talk to me about some of your thoughts around that?
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean, you know I can start. I'd like to start with my failures, because you know the early part of my life and I would say early up until probably my early thirties I wasn't great at sustaining anything. If you look at my weight, it was a roller coaster, you know, entering high school at 145 pounds, graduating at 225. And then over the next call it 10 years, um, you know getting down when, when you came out to seattle, getting down to 163 pounds and then by the time I was married I was 240, um, with a 260 in there a couple years prior, and always up and down.
Speaker 2:Same thing with marathons and running.
Speaker 2:I ran my first marathon in 07 and then stopped for five years, never really figuring out how to sustain anything.
Speaker 2:And so you know one of the things I'm most proud about, you know you'll get on Reddit or you'll get on social media and you'll see people post these pictures of these great weight losses and in a lot of the times especially if they're close friends and you follow their journey more broadly you'll see them gain the weight back.
Speaker 2:So one of the things I'm personally most proud of is getting to a point where now you know I've been able to sustain my weight for over a decade. A lot of that's due to the consistency of running, but it's also due to finding a sustainable nutrition plan and approach to food, as I've always kind of struggled with that. So, you know, we can unpack some of those things a little bit later, but I'd like to, I guess, pose the question to you guys, as it relates to some of the things you've struggled with, and then I think we can kind of go back and maybe talk about our solutions to those problems and what we've done to ensure that we put ourselves in the best position for longevity and just a healthy lifestyle, you know, for the time we're here on earth.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think for me, a lot of this goes back to where your head is at before you start and what you're actually, what your goal is, what you're striving to achieve. So I did a similar thing, or at least tried to, when we ran our first marathon in 2012,. I was done and that was it, until Trent came back and after that summer running with TJ and that hundred miler in South Dakota, you said you wanted to run and then we got back into it. So for me, that first goal was about running a marathon. That was a bucket list item for me, and when I was done with that, that was it.
Speaker 3:What's kept me going, when I have been able to sustain, is what is that goal and does that fit into, kind of the long-term picture? So I went from then we ran a second marathon and eventually my goals shifted. Certainly and I think there's an element of goal stacking here that we can get into later that plays into for me, sustainability, but it's wanting to have a level of fitness that made the rest of the other parts of my life much easier, and so as that goal shifted, for me, my motivation shifted from running this race and then being done with that race to finding a way to, in a fresh manner, sustain it long-term. In a fresh manner, sustain it long-term, Trent?
Speaker 1:So would that be? I mean, what you're saying is the motivation or what initially got you started in something. When you shifted to more of a maintenance mode, you had different goals.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say different goals, a different approach and mindset, and I think that allowed me to keep it fresher For a long time. It was running. But one of the things that I incorporated pretty early on was Orange Theory Fitness. That kept it fresh for me and that kept it fun, and I would bounce back and forth between the two. I do a lot of running in the summer. I would do Orange Theory in the winter because we all know how much I love cold running. And actually this year, for the first time, I honestly found myself really having an issue going into late last year with this sustainability conversation, this exact thing like why am I still doing this? We had run for almost 400 days and it's like you know, I've, I've run the marathons, I've run you know Boston a few times. Is that was maybe my 10th or 11th and I was just like what, what doing? Um, I'm doing the spartan race for the first time this year. Uh, just to mix it up and it's a that's a little bit of a different race.
Speaker 3:it's got running in it, but it also has these, um, uh, I don't know what you call them, these uh different physical tests yes, physical challenges uh, thank you Sprinkled throughout the duration of this event, and so for me, finding a way to keep it fresh and mix in different things, I think is certainly important that all contribute to just kind of circle this back, that all contribute to that overarching goal of staying fit.
Speaker 2:I just finished a book called Win, the Inside Game by Steve Magnus and this really, I think, expounds on or shines a light on this balance, and I'd love to hear from you on this. What I mean is in the balance I'm discussing is the balance of exploration, so trying new things to keep it fresh but at the same time balancing in what works for your lifestyle. So I think, you know, we hear a lot from people surrounding us. We've talked a lot about community and there are negative elements to community. There are particular people who think you should do it their way, you know, criticizing people who have streaks, because streaks limit these other pursuits, or criticizing people who do cross training or who run on treadmills Uh, you know.
Speaker 2:So being confident in yourself to say this is my way, this is how I'm going to do it, this is what I enjoy, but at the same time and in the book kind of talked about how important it is to continue to explore what's out there and to not get in that rut um rut where you're getting all of your validation and you're you know cause. The longer you chase a particular pursuit in a particular manner, the more you identify with that particular pursuit, the more that becomes part of you and the more unhealthy that is. So I know that you have really taken to your approach right now with fitness, but over the years you've talked about it in prior podcasts you've struggled with consistency in a number of different areas. So I'd love to hear how you've utilized whether it's finding your routine or exploration, to keep you kind of motivated.
Speaker 1:That's kind of interesting For the first time, when you said that it's like you kind of buy into a certain type of exercise and that kind of becomes a little bit of your identity, and for me that's the. I never would have pegged that, but for me running has kind of become that, that just I do it every day, it's just part of my life and so that's kind of I've kind of settled into that. I would say a couple of things balance, trying to find something that works for you. Recently I decided to do more stretching, so I found this company, posture RX, and I was having some kind of issues and you know, and we all sit and do different things and they're like okay, their first question was how many minutes a day are you going to work on? Tell me a timeframe. I was like I want five minutes. They're like give me the most effective things I can do in five minutes. Like do I have 20? Do I have 30? I know that I have five minutes and similar on a workout standpoint. When you know we went and we did that mayo thing, it was like I know I'm not going to go to the gym and work out 30 minutes a day, and so I was like give me five to ten minutes of core exercises that I can do, so I can focus on core, so I can focus on.
Speaker 1:And so what I've tried to do is my cardio, is my cardio, and that's important to me because I want to feel cardio, and that's important to me because I want to feel good, I want to be able to move long-term. I I just finished skiing and I'm out there with guys that are 70 plus and they're skiing and I'm like, well, I would love to be able to still ski when I'm 70 plus. And so what does that look like? It looks like taking care of myself from a physical fitness standpoint. It's not just running, it's not just core. But I think you have to choose. I think it's hard to do it all. It's hard to make a commitment this year on top of the running.
Speaker 1:I'm like okay, I'm 44. I'm going to do 44 pushups a day, and so I've added that to my routine goal stacking, as you would talk about, and so just trying to find things that are, um, they don't take a ton of time. But I think the most important thing is the consistency. You do 44 pushups a day for 365 days. What is that? 12 or 13,000 pushups? Like the difference of doing that a day versus doing a hundred one day and a hundred, you know, four days later.
Speaker 1:Like trying to find consistency, trying not to overdo it in every area. But I haven't done a really good job of probably exploring new things. I've just kind of settled in and when you start talking about that it's like that's probably an area in my life I should try some other things. I'm afraid to to some extent. I heard pickleball is a lot of fun but a lot of lateral movements. I don't want to blow a knee or an ankle out the recovery from that. So I would say, personally I'm a little timid there, but I have tried to find ways that fit within what I'm willing to put the time into to achieve the goals that I want to achieve.
Speaker 2:I'd like to bring this up before I lose this thought. I'd love to explore different times because I'm sure listeners have done this that you have struggled with justifying or reasoning away performance. So, you know, I think of a time after 07, where I remember going out, you know, and this is very early on in the marathon journey, so it was a Hal Higdon training program from Runner's World and very basic, and you know that was the oh, it takes 30 days to recover from a marathon and you shouldn't do anything for two weeks. And you know that was the oh, it takes 30 days to recover from a marathon and you shouldn't do anything for two weeks. And I remember like whatever that period.
Speaker 2:So after the two weeks, I went out and I ran and I'm like, oh, my knee. I'm like, oh, I can't run anymore. And, oddly enough, that was it. I'm done oh, my knee. You know I remember this also happening after Monumental in 2012, but that time it was like, oh, this isn't stopping me, I'll work through this. So I'd love to explore times that you guys have struggled with and different maybe negative thoughts or external thoughts that have played into your fitness journeys and you've like justified away, or what are the demons you fight on a regular basis and how do you fight them?
Speaker 3:I would say injury is a big one. Most people don't realize that. I, before I ran that first marathon, I tried to train twice and quit because it was really hard to have context for the injury, like you said, my right knee in particular. It was shin splints the first time because I tried to go from zero to 100 overnight and then my right knee gave me issues and immediately it was like I got to shut this down.
Speaker 3:And so I think what I would say real quickly, just in context to that, is like that's part of the journey too, and I think learning to embrace that and appreciate those failures and those times that you go through where there's a lack of motivation, leaning into that, I think is really important because that's inevitable. I mean you, there's no way. I, that's inevitable. I mean you, there's no way in no area of life business, spiritually, uh, fitness, are you going to ride the peak, like it's. That's part of the journey. Is you go up on the mountain, you come down the mountain and then you remember the mountain and you climb back up Right, and so for me, uh, I would say that is a is a big part of it is just embracing those low points and figuring out how to get back up the mountain.
Speaker 1:One question I want to ask both of you. So you have injury and you have pain tolerance. I struggle with my children understanding which one's which. But talk to me a little bit about how do you know when to listen to your body, like with your knee and I know you have several examples and how do you know when to push through it and how do you navigate that?
Speaker 2:I think it's something you learn over time. One of the rules of thumb that I was given by one of my very first running coaches, a guy by the name of Carl Meltzer, who is the winningest 100 miler in the world. He's won countless number of 100 mile races and he said to me he said, if it gets better while you're running, keep going. If it doesn't shut it down. And I think that's been a good rule of thumb. You know, as you get deeper and as I think, more of your identity gets tied to what you're doing, you don't listen to your body as much as you should because you feel like I have to get out there and I have to get it, so it actually completely flips it on its head. You know, when you first start, you're looking for any little because it's tough, it's difficult to do, you don't want to do it and you're looking for any little reason to stop. And then it becomes over time again as you get more of your identity tied into that listening and and so for me I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:This has been a very difficult three months.
Speaker 2:Um, I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis in December I think, or early January, finding out that I've had this severe foot pain for years and in the end of 24, got to the point where it was almost unbearable.
Speaker 2:And then I started to notice things in my hands and my extremities and my knees and my elbows and eventually being diagnosed with that. Extremities and my knees and my elbows uh, and eventually being diagnosed with that. As soon as we figure out what what that problem is and and put a plan in place to start dealing with those things, we find a stress reaction in my right foot which is a precursor to a stress fracture and we start to deal with that and we put a plan in place and you know we're doing all of these different things. And then I strained my calf two weeks ago running intervals. So you know, early in the running journey, any one of those things could have been an excuse and I think that a lot of times we look for those and there's unfortunately so much information out there that we're finding out is medically incorrect, like I mean, when you tell people you run high mileage inevitably, especially if they're older, and it just is what it is because there isn't as much access to information. What's the first thing they say?
Speaker 1:I was going to be. One of my questions is you go to a traditional doctor and you go for xyz and the first thing is shut it down, yeah, and then you go to a shout out, to jacob crow, I mean yeah, john grant as well, who I go to.
Speaker 2:Both those guys they're going to figure out a way to get you through it. And there are this funny uh, we go to and I don't want to again, you know, shouting out those two guys because they're huge supports for us. But we also go to a sports performance place in Indianapolis. They have a couple different locations and there are two doctors. One of them is a triathlete, one of them is not, and if you go to either one of those two doctors, you will get completely different. One of them will tell you shut it down, we're going to do this from scratch. You're not running for six weeks. The other one will be like okay, go to John or Jacob, let's reduce it a little bit. But here's the plan to bring you back to what you want to get to, because they understand how it impacts you mentally, what part of your identity is tied up in there, what kind of goals you have and how. Achieving those goals from a mental, physical, spiritual health perspective is going to be much more, much more beneficial to you in the longterm than finding an excuse to shut it down. And I think the doctors that do tell you to shut things down. Yes, there are times for that, but that creates this negative loop where that always becomes your solution. And then, all of a sudden, you know when you get to this age, as you guys know, you're never going to wake up and feel like at the beginning of the day, like yeah, you know, super, um, excited. The difference is, when you are physically fit, that subsides after the first couple of minutes of walking around. When you're not, it never does. You feel awful all the time. Or you're operating and I will tell you this after getting diagnosed with RA and then going on prednisone, which masked all of my pain. You have no idea, I think, those of you who aren't taking care of yourselves, at what level you're operating at. You know, you just think that's normal. Oh, I'm 45. I'm 47. I'm 50. I'm 60. I'm supposed to feel that way and that's what I thought. And then, you know, realizing I need to pay attention to my health instead of, again, I was on the bad side of it, right, ignoring it and saying, oh, it's fine, I'll just get through it. I'm tough, you know.
Speaker 2:Once I figured out I don't have to, you know, I need to pay attention to my health. I do need to listen to my body. Unfortunately for me, it took a couple of years until I did, but once I did and started doing the right thing for myself which, by the way and I will give kudos to my rheumatologist and John Grant, they both one of my big concerns was shut it down. You need to shut it down because your body's attacking your joints and we need to preserve what's left of them. And both of them were like keep moving, Don't change, keep moving.
Speaker 2:You know all of this research, all of the people that and this is gonna be an unpopular opinion that are like oh, your knees, you run high mileage your knees. It's absolutely false. It's completely false. You high mileage your knees. It's absolutely false. It's completely false. Continuing to create blood flow and continuing to strengthen the muscles and tendons that support those joints long-term.
Speaker 2:We know people, like you just said, in their 70s, that are skiing. If you're skiing aggressively and you're skiing moguls and you're skiing they'd say the same thing that's terrible for your knees. Well then, how are they doing it at 70? Sitting around doing nothing is just as bad for your knees as going out and being active, and there are I'm not downplaying other issues that may happen.
Speaker 2:Maybe you have been involved in a particular sport where you've torn tendons multiple times and you've had to have surgeries. I get that. There are those things. I know your wife deals with that. So, not downplaying like severe knee trauma, but from a degenerative perspective it's just as bad to do nothing as it is to do something. So I know I kind of went off on a tangent there, but, um, you know, if you start to lean into it, like you said, and you start to embrace and look for solutions to these problems and follow a simple rule of thumb like if it gets worse, stop. If it doesn't continue, I think that you'll eventually get to a point where that becomes. An exciting part of it is figuring out okay, I have all of these things, how do I continue to maintain my fitness? And it forces you to explore as well with the challenges that are in front of me.
Speaker 1:I want to touch on a couple of things. I want to be devil's advocate, Okay, so let's just use knees as an example, because everyone says you run every day Like it's so bad for you. Do you feel like your knees? I try to compare it. There are a set of tires right, or whatever name the part. Do you believe there is a point where you're doing too much Like? Could you overdo it? Will they wear out eventually?
Speaker 3:Yeah, let me just jump in. I think we're talking about two different things here. I think there is my personal opinion is I think there is an element of wear and tear. That's real. However, I think what TJ's saying I've heard the phrase motion is lotion right when it comes to just day-to-day well-being right and wellness and ability to get around and that sort of thing. Exercise has proven time and time and time again to be a positive thing for that. So I think what TJ's saying is shutting it down completely is probably going to make you feel worse on a day-to-day basis, like maybe your joints might last a little longer, but what's the point? I mean the whole reason you're maintaining your well-being is for your continued ease of movement right over time. So if you are not moving on, a and tear but that wear and tear is going to it's going to be much less prevalent if you're continuing to move on a daily basis.
Speaker 2:I would agree with that. I think that wear and tear is going to happen naturally, just as you age.
Speaker 1:But the difference between you running 3, 000 miles a year and somebody running 1200 miles a year yeah like what. What is that and how does that you know, work?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think that really depends on the person. It depends on how you're running, what the impact is like, where you're running. Are you running trails? Are you running pavement? What's your foot strike like? What is your um? You know, I think there's a ton of different factors that play into what that wear and tear will do over time. But I think tj's right in terms of the perception is that everyone's tires are running out of 60 000 miles once. Once you hit 60,000 miles, it's over. You've got to get a replacement. I think that's not necessarily the case Now.
Speaker 3:Our grandpa one of the things that he swore by was walking like three miles a day. Right, he went to the mall. So I think those are some of the things that are not necessarily a bad idea. I think running some people do have issues with running. There's bad joints, some of that's hereditary. It just is a very painful experience for people. But incline walking or walking in general I've been talking to people quite a bit about that Incline walking is one of the best things you can do from a fitness perspective because you're really trying to achieve a certain level of heart rate. You don't necessarily need to get your heart rate into the 150s, 60s, 70s to get a lot of the fitness benefits. I think you can get 80% of the benefits, fitness-wise, from going out and walking. So I think modification to TJ's point, as you talked about John Grant and some of those others it's about modification, not shutting it down not shutting it down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that, to kind of elaborate just a little bit on that, is that the more you do, the more intense you are, the three, the more um, extra work you have to do. Like so, biomechanically right, if you're running a lot, you need to make sure that your biomechanics are in order, which is what John and Jacob will do. Are your glutes firing? How's your foot strike? Are your hips open? So you know, I think you look at elite runners towards the end of their career. Meb Kofleski comes to mind. You know, I remember reading that Meb would do 40 or 45 minutes of activation before he went to run. You know when you're running 80, 90, 100 miles a week, that's his job. You know, and as I've been coming back from these things I've been having to do, you know when you're running 80, 90, a hundred miles a week, that's his job. Um, you know, and as I've been coming back from these things I've been having to do, you know, a significant amount of physical therapy to make sure that, uh, when I do get back into running, that, biomechanically I'm right, and I think that when it comes to walking, those are less intense. So you don't have to worry about your biomechanics as much.
Speaker 2:And I think some people and this is something that we've, I know, had conversations with, because I said this a thousand times over the years because running is a natural movement, people don't think they need to practice, people don't think that there's a right way to do it, and so you get out there and you go run and the first couple of times and you see these runners on a TV that are marathoners, and you see these beautiful long strides and maybe you look at some information or you look at the way that certain shoes are structured from a geometric perspective and you're like I got a stride long and I hit my heel and I roll through it, not understanding that both of those things are terrible when you're beginning running.
Speaker 2:And so you implement these biomechanics and you become comfortable with these things and over time you do face those kinds of issues because you're not utilizing the way the body has evolved over the years in a correct manner to maintain that longevity. So I would say that the more work you do, the faster you run, the more conscious you need to be about the other things, like stretching, and now there's even this, this static stretching pre running versus post. People are saying you don't, you shouldn't stretch before you run, you should do it afterwards. So there's always more information coming out as to how you should approach that.
Speaker 3:Let me ask you guys this so we've spent a lot of time talking about the physical aspect of this, of sustainability and recovery, and we haven't gotten into sleep. But I think we should at some point, because that's incredibly important as well and, I think, underrated in today's day and age. But let's talk mentally about that sustainability. How long have you been running TJ?
Speaker 3:13, consistently for 13 years, 13 years and Trent, you're close behind that 2014, so how have and some of this we probably touched on in prior episodes but mentally, talk about some of the training blocks that you recall that you've really struggled with or have been really difficult for you, and how you have fought through those mentally, maybe when physically you're okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll jump in. So I remember training for marathons. I can't remember exactly which one, but I had a training plan right and I had to get in these runs, and there are certain runs that are workouts, and I remember, and most of my runs are in the morning, and getting up in the winter 6am in the dark and running, and I remember not wanting to do that and, and I think during a training process there's peaks where you kind of you know I think during a training process there's peaks where you kind of you know you kind of level up, and when you have a bad day it's especially on a workout day it kind of destroys you mentally, um, and so I would say, during the process I struggled with that a lot. Uh, having a partner to run with was helpful. I didn't always have that, though, and, marion, especially as I started training and getting up to faster speeds like finding people the same speed is tough. Um, so, mentally, just getting myself out of bed was hard, uh, especially on the on those days.
Speaker 1:On the flip side, once, like when I crossed the finish line and I achieved X goal, um, all the thoughts of like those mornings and the work you put in, it was like a flow of emotion right it. Those are the things that you don't want to do. When you do the things you don't want to do I think you may have said this when you work really really hard at something or maybe maybe it was you, todd when you work really really hard at something and you fail, it hurts more. But also, if you work really really hard at something, you succeed. You kind of embody that more. So I have had many, many times communities been important, which we've talked about a ton, um, but also like I wanted to stick to my plan and I didn't want to.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to show up and not be prepared. I didn't want to be like, I didn't want to ask the question what if? What? What? What if I would have worked harder? What if I would have ran faster? What? What if I would have trained more? So for me it was a, a fear of not putting forth the effort to be the best I could be. Um. And that probably came even more prevalent in the relay races, which is why I hate them. It's like a love hate because like, well, if I go out and I don't hit my goal or I can't push through. It's on me, but like I'm running with you guys in a relay and the whole team's counting on me and if I don't feel like I'm in the mid to low sixes, I'm not pulling my weight and I'm one of the slowest and like the peer pressure that that puts you like I've got to work as hard as I possibly can because I want to be ready, because I don't want to be the guy.
Speaker 2:So those have been the things that have pushed me, yeah, I mean mentally. For me it's being honest with myself and realizing that there's a hundred ways that's going to cat. So you know when it gets boring, um, and it gets long. You know doing things like running all the roads in Westfield or running all the roads in Carmel. Uh, you know doing that on my easy days, going in and exploring somewhere new. That's been. That's been big. That breaks up the monotony. You know exploring different training plans and training strategies. That's been really cool. You know uncovering different things over the years. I'm the type of person that really enjoys that. Some people I do know, um, kind of get in a routine and do the same thing over and over again, and I think that's okay as long as as they're able to, um, achieve their goals over that long-term period we're talking about. But you know that's that's been a big thing is is realizing that, like you don't have to. Example uh, you, we were in Arizona. I ran a two 48. I never ran over 15 miles in that block ever, um, because I realized through doing some research and some guessing and testing, I don't like 21 milers or 22 milers, so I never ran more than two hours and it worked. It worked for me. You know gamification. We've talked about a ton. So one of the things that we started exploring a couple of years ago I think the first time I ever did it was at your house was measuring lactate. It sounds kind of insane, pricking your finger and putting we talked about in a prior episode right and putting blood on a stick and getting a measurement, like you would measure your blood glucose. But what it does is it gamified it for me so I could see in real time, okay, at this pace for this duration, my blood glucose, or, excuse me, my lactate is here and then, over time, seeing it drop. Next time I did that same pace for that same duration. Oh, it's lower. Okay, I'm getting fitter, I actually can physically see it.
Speaker 2:Uh, most recently it's been this heat training that we've been exploring, which, um, I won't go into the science of it, but it's very similar to acclimating at altitude, um, and it, it. It embodies what you were just talking about, todd. With everything that I'm dealing with right now, it's not smart for me to go run on a strained calf, and so I've been doing incline walking at 4% and with the heat element and, just so you understand, that's four layers of clothes up top, that's wearing a stocking cap in an enclosed space with a space heater on getting your core temperature up to 102. Yes, I'm hydrating very well for those of you that are concerned, but I can get threshold type work doing heat training at 100, getting my heart rate to mid 140s, low 150s, getting that same type of work without stressing myself biomechanically. And finding that solution was really exciting and it's helped If you were to look at this build. So a standard marathon build takes about 16 weeks if you're fit, 12.
Speaker 2:I have Boston five and a half weeks. I have been able to do about two weeks of work thus far and that's been supplemented by this heat training. We'll see what happens in Boston, but it's been fun to try to solve. This problem is how can I stay fit enough to go to Boston and qualify for Boston next year with all of these things that are facing me and I can't take this traditional approach. So that's been a way that I've kept it. Exciting from a mental perspective is exploring different training methods, exploring different things within a training week. Um, you know, whether it be doing something on a treadmill, doing something outside, doing something on an indoor track, doing something on an outdoor track all of those things, uh, have have helped me stay um engaged and excited when pursuing goals.
Speaker 3:And what I hear you saying and a little bit of both of you, is that you're really trying to fight against that element of delayed gratification, Because the training for a marathon it is delayed gratification in the worst possible sense. I mean you think about when you're training for a marathon and let's just say it's a 10-week training plan and you're running on average 40 miles a week, putting in 400 to 500 miles and maybe that's averaging nine minutes a mile. You are out there for an extremely long period of time with limited positive feedback loops right, with limited positive feedback loops, right. And so what I hear you saying is trying to inject and almost implement some feedback loops as part of that process where you can get some of that gratification along the way to keep you going, whether that's seeing your lactate threshold levels drop. The first thing you said before we started this, talking about the heat training you just hit 100% acclimated, so it's like seeing that percentage go up of heat acclimation. How can you find creative ways? I think that's another thing that you said. You've got to be willing to be creative and explore things that work for you, that allow you to get that feedback throughout this extremely long, arduous process, and I know for me it's goals.
Speaker 3:When I don't have a time goal or any sort of other thing, it's very hard for me to contextualize A, whether I'm even preparing appropriately, and then mentally it's extremely hard to find a purpose if I don't. You know, in the absence of having some sort of goal, whether that's, you know, a specific goal or a broader goal in mind, I actually struggle with this. You mentioned pushups. I started this year doing pushups and pull-ups, so many a day, and I think it was like early February I went like three or four days without doing my pull-ups and it was like I was sliding like down fast, like why am I doing this, why am I doing pull-ups, and like at that point it was pretty much time to shut it down for the year.
Speaker 3:I was gonna fall right off the cliff, like I have many other times and I think many of us do, after New Year's resolutions, right, and I remembered the reason I started doing those was for the Spartan race that I had in June. I had just completely spaced that, I had registered for that and I had planned that out and that brought me right back and I got right back in the habit. I did some extras to close up for those days, and now I've continued down the habit, but it was the absence of that purpose that really eroded. You know why am I doing this? And, um, you know, for me so it's a combination of a few things.
Speaker 1:Do you think it's possible to live in maintenance mode? No races, no, just maintain.
Speaker 3:It. It depends what your goal is. I think, yes, it is, but you would want to have a strong why and a goal associated with that, I mean what if your goal was to look good naked?
Speaker 1:That was it. I have a friend that actually said that and I thought it was pretty funny. It's like what's your goal? I want to look good without my clothes on. I'm like okay.
Speaker 2:So that's the starting point, but if you feasible to just get involved in something that you just, you do the same every day and you, you aren't training for a marathon or half marathon. Yeah, um, you know, I think you that goes to being honest with yourself and surrounding yourself with the right community. I mean, I'm going to run for the rest of my life because that's what all my friends do and that's where we have our conversations Like I don't, you know, I go to dinner every now and then, right, but like there it's on the trail as much as I can. Obviously it hasn't the last couple of months with, with all the injuries, but that's something that I look forward to. I think the other piece of the puzzle and and I recognize this when I say being honest, honest with yourself it's like I know that it is something I struggle with heavily because, on one hand, you know, I have friends that will say at some point you know they have, they have shifted from racing to running and they've made that shift and they've done that for longevity. And I struggle with the same thing. It's like, well, I'm dealing with this. You know, today I told him I woke up with tendinitis in my foot. It is what it is, we'll get through it, but it's like man at one I do want to be the 70 year old guy out there doing that and I don't want to do the 45 minutes of physical therapy that I'm doing every morning right now to continue to maintain Um, maybe I can get away with 15, and you know, running a little less aggressively will probably afford me the ability to not do as much from a physical therapy perspective over a long period of time. But at the same time I'm like man, how long can I hold this, hold this. You know like there's guys out there now in their 50s you're just starting to see the first wave, twice all these master's records falling of people that believe you can actually be really physically optimized in your 40s and 50s and even, I think, until you know early 60s like you can really still throw down. Um, old eddie whitlock, rest in peace broke three in the marathon at 70, something. Now again, a lot of times those people start running later in life. But point being is like so it's going to be interesting over the next couple of years to see how that evolves. If there is a point in time where it's like okay, I'm going to shift this, it's all going to be about community, it's going to be about running with friends. It's going to be about running with friends. It's going to be about running with my daughter. It's going to be about producing races.
Speaker 2:And then, on the other side, you mentioned food and diet, and for me it's finding something that is sustainable for you, and that's something I never thought I'd be able to do, because we struggle with food especially us two like in ways that most people wouldn't imagine. I always tell the story that I'll look back and it's not perfectly accurate, but it's directionally accurate at the amount of calories I've burned over the last 13 years and had I not been running, I'd weigh like six or 700 pounds, like if you just take that number and extrapolate it out, um, you know. And so I've needed to figure out and I don't know if it was one of you maybe said it, I'm not sure I heard it somewhere for me it's been this intermittent fasting or not eating and, like it's, it's just easier for me to cut out that meal than to try to utilize my willpower over four meals a day or three meals a day, like let's just forget about it and then we'll utilize willpower over these two meals. It makes it a little bit easier that way. I think you might have said it in relation to your streak Like just this is what you do is easier than that.
Speaker 2:So you know, I found that that works for me and keeping up with the running works for me and I think I can sustain those. I give myself treats every now and then, actually probably more than I should, but you know, I do think it's possible long-term. I've done it for 11 years, 12 years, 13 years. Why stop now?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say one answer. My answer to your question would be a hundred percent it's. I think it absolutely is possible to be in maintenance mode and I think it's what is your, what's your goal as a person, like for us, I would say running is more of a centerpiece, I would say in the centerpieces of people's lives. I think, naturally and I think this might be more of a male thing frankly, but I've seen it across the board is, I think, in your primary centerpieces people have a tendency to be a little more achievement oriented right, and I would say running for us has been a little more of a centerpiece and I think in those areas, especially if there's a purpose that you're tying to that, you probably are going to be a little more achievement-oriented in that realm.
Speaker 3:However, I think fitness is a perfect thing to also be a leisure activity or kind of a background type of activity. So I talked to my oldest son, noah, about playing sports and we've talked about this previously in Hamilton County. You choose what sports you want to play competitively and then you choose what sports you want to play leisurely. So I feel like it's the same thing in life.
Speaker 3:You can only have so many centerpieces, right of the things that you're focusing on and you're going to try and achieve in, and then you've got another set of things in your life that you want to be you know more leisurely involved in and I think for someone who has other centerpieces which, by the way, changes throughout the journey of your life right, you have young kids versus you're heavy into business or career I think it can change over time. But for someone who is not necessarily running is not a centerpiece. I think maintenance mode a hundred percent is, provided they value looking good without any clothes on or whatever.
Speaker 1:Well, what about? So? We're talking about the mentality side of things. I know one of the biggest things for a lot of people and I struggle with this at times is just, it feels selfish. Right, you do have other priorities, you are having to sacrifice and a lot of times it's at the expense of others and maybe just in a husband and wife relationship, not even kids. It's like well, you have time to work out. It would be nice if I had time. How do you guys like, how do you guys navigate that conversation and and those emotions, because I imagine a lot of people watching have those emotions oh yeah, and that's funny.
Speaker 2:you bring that up because that's the next topic I was going to tackle. You remember the quote that we always shared between each other with Arnold If the president has time to work out, you have time to work out. If the pope has time to work out, you have time to work out. And that's true. It's what do you want to sacrifice to get that done? And it's how can you work that into your life? Again, if you have other things into your centerpiece?
Speaker 2:I mean, I make a game out of it. I know you seem to do the same thing. It's like all right, I've got 30 minutes or I've got 45 minutes. I mean, if you go look at like run titles on Garmin for me, I can't tell you, it happens at least monthly when I'm running where I'll run out of time and I'll have to run faster to finish a thing or whatever to get it in in the allotted time that I have. You know I run during lunch a lot, so I have like this fixed window. You know, could I go a little bit longer and cut into the workday? Sure, but I don't want to make a habit of that, you know, and so I'll do that and we talked, I think, on a prior episode. Sometimes, when I'm flying out West and it's a six 30 flight, I got to get up at four, or you have to get up at three, 50. And I I think of it as kind of a game. You know, um, and I told my wife this and I and I think this would hold true is that if I'm into fitness myself and we talked about long-term goals my long-term goal and, yes, you're going to have your naysayers, so you're going to hit by a gut bus tomorrow is to keep my physiology in a place where I can live until our grandfather's age, you know, in in our mid nineties or whatever, um, provided you know, medical care and whatever stays the same and doesn't allow us to live until we're 120, who knows, um, you know. So, given that I have that long-term goal in mind, I'm going to support my wife in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, right now Tara is on a walking streak. She's walked every day since December 30th a couple, a couple of miles, and so what I make sure I do is she, she's got a job that she um works on patients all day long. So she's got to get up at 630 and she doesn't get home till 430. So I make sure that I handle taking the kids to and from all of their afterschool activities so that she can get her walk in, or I'll take the kids after dinner's over, which it's getting late. I'll take the kids and make sure that they're achieving what they need to achieve, whether that's homework or taking a shower or getting ready for bed while she does her walk.
Speaker 2:So you know she's had to make the decision. Am I going to get up at four in the morning or five in the morning and do my walk before work? No, I don't want to do that. I love sleep. Anybody who knows my wife knows she loves sleep more than anybody else on the planet, um, but so yeah, it's it's. I'm going to have to sacrifice getting on the treadmill at seven o'clock, which isn't PM, which isn't always fun. But you know, as somebody who has got the same fitness goals, I have to respect that. And she's just got to make um, she's got to pick the time, you know, and I'll support it in any way I can.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say both and uh, in any way I can.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say both, and Jenna and I have kind of discussed this at length and I'm willing to move around whatever I need to move around to make sure she has the time to exercise whenever she wants to. I think, culturally, we suffer a lot more from people not being selfish enough, frankly, in terms of taking care of themselves. I would say that's much more of the issue culturally than people being overly selfish, at least in terms of taking care of themselves, in terms of whether that's recovery-type things, massages, or getting space mentally or exercising or those sorts of things. I think we suffer from people not prioritizing themselves enough, and then that boils into other areas of our lives, right, our level of frustration versus our level of patience. I think my personal opinion is there's certainly a level of diminishing returns, but for every hour you spend on yourself on a daily basis, the return is probably 2x in terms of the quality of the other activities in your life. That's not backed by substantial evidence, but I would be willing to stand behind that in my personal experience.
Speaker 2:I think this dovetails perfectly into recovery, and I'd love for you to talk about this, because you've talked about react, because recovery is like self-care, right, and you've talked about how you know, looking at different metrics via your aura ring or when you wore your band prior, really gave you insight into things you could do to better recover, and I think that you know we do things to please other people that could impact something like recovery. For instance, as somebody who, for whatever reason, this year I just decided to stop drinking. You know completely, I drink very rarely, which is crazy, because I used to drink seven nights a week when I was running nightclubs and then it dwindled down to probably a dozen times or less last year, and now it's just like whatever, I'll have an NA beer or something like that, but point being is, we'll go out and to make someone else feel comfortable or to not feel awkward, we'll have a drink, like I don't want this situation to be awkward. Somebody told me once uh is that I don't trust people that don't drink, and that is an interesting statement, um, but it's kind of stuck with me. So I was like, oh, I'll have a drink, cause I don't want to be the weird guy and I don't want to.
Speaker 2:You know, I want to make sure I'm there for the cheers or whatever, um, so I'm patronizing them, if you will, at the detriment to myself. And I think we see other people. I've got friends and family that maybe they don't track that types of thing, that type of thing, and it results in them not spending the necessary. Oh I'm sick, oh I'm tired. And I'm not saying that, you know, I know my tone was a little off there, I'm not saying that in a manner that's degrading, I'm just saying you know, I know you said that your eyes were kind of opened when you started to look at the metrics as to what you needed to do for self-care. So I'd be interested to hear a little bit more about that revelation.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I started several years ago wearing the Woot Band and just kind of watching the data and I think you wake up and you feel kind of how you feel. But when you look at data it substantiates. And one of the things I loved about whoop at the time and still think it's a great feature is the journaling feature, and so I started to pay attention right, because your scores don't lie right. It'll tell you in the morning what your HRV is. It'll tell you what your resting heart rate was. It'll give you some key components and you start to see trends over time.
Speaker 1:And then I was able to associate certain habits and you could, and then they would extrapolate that over months. So I could see on the nights that I drink alcohol that my recovery was a negative 8.5% and it would put in a percentage and of course you feel that when you wake up. But now you have this, my recovery was I've got a good friend that every time I hang out with them I call it the James effect my recovery is red. I don't know why. I do know why, but like so it helped me understand patterns and it helped me understand what things were causing and they weren't rocket science. It's like look, if I eat late, you know your body needs time, like if you're eating after really eight o'clock and you're, I mean it depends when you go to bed. But your body, if you stop eating at dinner, let's say six o'clock, your body spends so much energy digesting food all day long. If you stop at six and it has a you know two, three, four hours to start digesting food by the time you go to bed, your body can start repairing itself and not digesting food. Shocker, right, but I mean it's, it's common sense stuff, but when you put numbers to it it's important. And then I switched to the aura ring and it's very similar.
Speaker 1:It's like when I wake up how I feel although I just got back from high altitude and it's incredible what being at altitude does to you my resting heart rate's generally 45 to 50. Out there it's 58 to 62. And my blood oxygen is 99. Here Out there when I got there it was 94. And I was like lightheaded and I'm in pretty good shape and I had to get on like an oxygen concentrator just to kind of get get myself up. But like there's no way I'm drinking alcohol when I'm up at those altitudes, cause I know I'll be destroyed. So for me it.
Speaker 1:I think that the important part of it is you should rest. You do need recovery. You need it also measures your REM sleep. It measures your, your deep sleep, and it's super important to have those because I think you said it, you don't know how good you feel until you, you know you actually get there. And so I would say recovery for me has been one of the most important parts. I try to get to where I'm in bed eight to eight and a half hours, and generally the sleep time is seven to seven and a half, and making sure that I'm getting deep and rim and so forth and so on. So it's been an incredible tool.
Speaker 3:You said something there that I think was important, which is really seeing the numbers and actually experiencing it I think just brings a whole new level of wisdom and things that you're willing to put into practice. Because, I don't know, maybe this is egotistical for me, but it seems like there's so many of those old wives tales out there about different health types of things, and I have always been one that's like I'll believe it when I see it kind of thing right, and we've talked, we've debunked several of them, and one of them for the longest time I kind of thought was eating late, like I can fall asleep after eating a bowl of Raisin Bran cereal. I like to eat it late at night, 9 pm, and it's got a ton of sugar, and I thought you know, as I said, don't eat late. You have trouble falling asleep, or whatever. I could fall asleep. The problem was I wasn't getting enough deep and REM sleep because my body was still digesting food and it wasn't able to get in the deep and REM sleep. And so what's interesting is, having done the whoop band and the aura ring as well, like I started to see those metrics. You can see how much time you're spending in deep and REM sleep and then you're able to see your metrics and your recovery and it just, like it, paints a whole new picture. I just I've started out so pessimistic with some of those things and when you experience it and you see it in the same thing with alcohol, it's like no, this is very real stuff, and my ability to stay rested also. I mean, for me, I will I don't know how you guys feel like speak to this. I wanted to come back to sleep. Talk about another underrated thing, right, you know you want to talk about return on your productivity.
Speaker 3:Now, I know some people have different thresholds for sleep and they can operate on six hours or seven hours. I know we all have different thresholds there. I will say for me personally, even upwards of eight to nine hours of sleep, if I am sleeping well and I'm exercising, I don't get sick and that will change. Like my immune system, obviously, is going to continue to go down over time. But with a household of people around me who are fighting something, I might get a little bit of a tickle in my throat, I might wake up with my temperature feeling a little off, but like there's nothing that impacts my day to day when I'm doing those sorts of things.
Speaker 3:And so that's the things I think can creep up on you when you think about oh, I don't have time to work out, I don't have time to get an extra 30, 45 minutes, an extra hour of sleep, but you got time to be down and out for a week when you get the flu, and you got time to be, you know, kind of at half capacity when you get a bad cold and you can't operate. You've got no choice. And so for some of this, I think taking care of yourself not only actually evens itself out through your overall productivity on a day-to-day basis, but I think you just feel better as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you're right In terms of getting sick. I think we're all nodding our heads there. It's rare, very rare. You know, every now and then you'll catch a severe flu bug, but it's a quick recovery. You know, even when you're vomiting, it's a day. You're back the next day. You're not down for a week and I see a lot of people out there that are constantly sick.
Speaker 2:It's like every other week it's a cold, it's a headache, it's a migraine, and look again, you know, I want to be, I want to be conscious, conscious of the fact that we're not saying you know, I mean, if you put into practice everything that, like a Huberman does and I was talking to a friend who has a buddy who's doing this kind of thing yeah, it could be a lot like no certain types of light.
Speaker 2:After you know, I mean, this particular person uses candles for like 7 pm because they don't want particular types of light. And then you're getting your son first thing in the morning to set your circadian rhythm and, like you know, I guess you have to kind of look at what is the best return on investment for you. I think sleep is one of those huge factors that you really need, but you really need to take into consideration. But you don't need to live like that and I think it's important to recognize that. You know, I think you you talk about it a lot there's an objective study on different drugs and like where they rank in terms of harm to the body, and I think, if memory serves me, alcohol is right behind cocaine or something like that.
Speaker 1:It's ahead of it. It's ahead of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's number one on the list.
Speaker 2:And you listen to a lot of different doctors out there, people in the medical field that gets brought up a lot. There's so much content out there. Again, we're not saying that you need to live the life of a monk where you sleep 10 hours a night and you never do anything fun. But with the advent of more information coming out, you're seeing the younger generation shy away from alcohol. You're seeing a lot of like alcohol alternatives, like kava based drinks that will give you a feeling. It's a little, it's somewhat euphoric. Um, you know, a lot of times it takes time to adapt to those things and there's a there's a period of time before they start to work for you. But there's all these alternatives out there now. But you know, realize that you're kind of doing this to yourself and I think you said it kind of creeps up on you because in your 20s you can right, you can do that, you can go have.
Speaker 2:The last time that I was like obliterated drunk was in 2014. And I can remember prior to that, um, I think I may have told this story. If you go back and you look at my the very beginning of my Instagram, it's pictures of vodka, red Bulls, and it was when I was in nightlife and I was drinking seven days a week and that that night I had had 21 vodka, red Bulls, um, over a period of I think we started drinking at like 3 PM and finished it, so it was over like 10 hours. Uh, still, you know, two to three drinks an hour and that much caffeine is pretty dangerous. But I, you know, I do remember being able to function relatively Okay the next, you know, maybe the second day after that. Um, if I did that now I'd be dead after that.
Speaker 1:Um, if I did that now I'd be dead, um. But you know, you get used to it and your body adapts.
Speaker 2:Your body adapts and it's kind of like the rheumatoid arthritis, right, it's like I didn't know because it snuck up on me. And then when I took something that alleviated that that pain, it was like, oh my god, this got really, really bad. And I didn't know. And I think you drink consistently enough over time. It just slowly creeps in there, that's with anything.
Speaker 1:I mean, I would say one of the biggest sneaky ones is caffeine. Like, I got addicted to caffeine and it was one of those where I was drinking caffeine. I was having coffee, one coffee, I was having one, two and three different cups of coffee and it just kept building. And I'm on these roller coasters all day and then I have headaches and then it's a diuretic and I'm using the restroom a lot. And caffeine is one of those where you can adjust to it and I think you can do a lot of it. Your body morphs and you're like oh, this is how I feel every day when I eat this or drink this, and then it becomes the new norm and you don't know how good you could feel without it.
Speaker 3:That is the blessing and the curse of the human body. It is, as that's one of the things and maybe I mentioned this in a prior episode, but this is one of the things that I have been blown away by, probably more so than anything in my fitness journey is the adaptability and the sophistication of the human body. I mean the way it adapts and the way that it allows us to push ourselves and to achieve. I mean, it is just absolutely remarkable. The problem is it adapts so well that it masks horrible habits and not that caffeine is a horrible habit I'm just talking about. Like, if you sleep six hours, five, six hours a day, it will adjust and find a way for you to be able to operate on that hours a day. It will adjust and find a way for you to be able to operate on that Now, depending on, again, your overall disposition, hereditary and overall kind of makeup that may or may not be doing a lot of long-term damage that your body is just compensating for.
Speaker 3:You know I think we've talked about this a little bit with mom Mom ran really hard for a very long period of time. I mean, you know she would go to bed late 11, 1130, and she would wake up at 435. And she did that for years and years and years and years, and I think we all, at different times, have wondered, like if that had anything to do and maybe not right. We're, we're not doctors, this is not medical advice or anything, but I think all of us have kind of paused at times to wonder did that accelerate some of the wear and tear over time that her body was able to compensate for? But yeah, to me that that's the challenge of the human body. It is so good that it allows us to do things that are not great for us, and it masks it very well.
Speaker 1:It's really fascinating because a lot of times the things that hurt recovery, sometimes they're selfish things, but a lot of times those are self-sacrifices for others.
Speaker 1:When I think about mom, what you just said, like mom ran that schedule for us and so I find I'm willing to sacrifice personally health and wellbeing for my kids and for my spouse, and just those are things. You can really apply that to any category in my life. It's like I don't spend a ton of stuff for me but like I'll buy my kids stuff, right. So I think there's there's a component of that where, when you talk about being selfish or not being selfish enough, like the stage of life I'm in, it's hard to commit to training for a race right now. Like do I want to spend my Saturday mornings traveling to volleyball or soccer or do I want to spend them getting up at 4am to run a 12 mile run to get that in before we leave? Like it's not as important to me right now, at the phase of life that I'm in, to be training for races to putting in 60, 70 mile weeks. So that's why I do 25 to 30.
Speaker 2:I think you've. But you found the balance, like you said 25 to 30, which I think is like I don't know if I'd use the seeing the forest through the trees, but it's like. It's like you know, racking up credit card debt, so your kids are happy knowing that a couple of years from now you're going to file bankruptcy and you guys may be, you know, lose, may lose a house, and so it's like you know. But I think we see that it's like because we all I think we all would share the same like we'll make massive sacrifices for our kids in terms of our time. But if we're like, oh, you know, I can't do it because my kids have sports, it's like, look, man, you've got three kids, you've got four, I've got three. All of them are in crazy amounts. We feel your pain but saying I can't do it because you know I'm going to be raising kids the next 17 years and then, all of a sudden, your life is 20 years shorter and you don't get to help them through raising their own kids and you don't get to see their grandkids. Because you didn't find the balance like you have, you went to 30. Awesome, you didn't go to zero and so you've been able to kind of work that in there and still maintain a little bit of it, and so I think that's important to kind of call out is man there? And it's interesting Like there's always something around.
Speaker 2:There's always an excuse. And I'm not saying we faced every problem in the world. We haven't. You know, in a lot of instances we're very privileged but at the same time we all have things that pull our time. We all have. You know, we can all justify whatever we want to justify. Oh, I've had a hard day. You know, a drink would be great. Or you know I need to stay up. I mean things as trivial. As you know. Two nights ago I wanted to stay up and see if I won my fantasy game for the week. That's why I stayed up till 1230 to do so. That was selfish on my behalf. Did you win? Yes, I did.
Speaker 2:But, anyways, I wanted to call out that you know finding balance instead of just saying, ah, forget it.
Speaker 3:I think that's huge. There is a level of diminishing returns, as we've talked about with everything, and I think you're spending 30, whatever 45 minutes a day taking care of that versus zero, which is, I think, the difference in you spending 45 minutes and someone else spending an hour and 45 minutes. I don't think from their daily productivity there's going to be a whole lot of additional return coming in that additional hour. You've decided that running at this point is not a centerpiece, right, and I think that's perfectly thing. I wanted to go back to mom for a second. This comes back to just mental motivation stuff. For those that don't know I don't know that everyone knows she. She passed away little over two years ago of a disease called MSA, which stands for multiple system atrophy, systems atrophy, yeah, which to me I don't know why this is a little bit of a side note, it feels like A catch-all yeah.
Speaker 3:Everything's shutting down and we don't know why, which I think is kind of accurate. It's like colic yeah, it's crying, the baby's crying. Anyways, what I think we had the benefit of is a gratitude for being able to move, because she could not move for the last two years of her life, right and uh. So I think, mentally, when we talk about struggle and like being in these, these painful training cycles, there is it's all up here, right. We all know that, everyone knows that it's all mental, taking the time to just appreciate the ability to move, the ability to be out, there is something that is a gift that she inevitably gave to us through that journey.
Speaker 3:I would also say, from a motivation perspective, I was sitting in the doctor's office the other day and he was like how do you guys eat? And I was like well, generally it's pre-processed stuff. You know, we're in a hurry, we got to do this, we got to do that, and the same thing with running, by the way. So there are areas of our life where we do fit the right stuff in. There are areas of our life where we don't. And food, you know, we got all the answers. Like you know, maybe fitness, we've obviously leaned into that a little bit from a food perspective. No, uh, I can tell you and I'll just speak for my family Like we're heating stuff up, it's chicken nuggets, I'm eating raisin bran cereal, we're throwing things in the microwave and and that is. We just basically continued to make excuses that we're too busy to cook good meals.
Speaker 2:You know that leads perfectly into a thought I was just having around how to chunk stuff up and accomplish things one bit at a time. Because if you look at everything out there I was talking about the guy that carries candles around at seven o'clock there's so much, especially when you talk about food. There's the dyes, that everybody's red dye, red 21 or whatever it's called there's the processed food. There's the extra sugar. There's all of these things. It applies to running. You don't have to run 70 miles a week, chunking it up and getting their sleep, chunking it up and getting there, because if you try to implement all of these things at once, you're eating right, you're exercising correctly, you're exercising correctly, you're sleeping well, you're recovering well, you're not drinking.
Speaker 2:It's like oh, my goodness. So I guess it'd be interesting to hear from and I think you have something to say on this. It'd be interesting to hear, like okay, this is how we approached it, one step at a time, because we're just as guilty. Dad, I want to go to McDonald's. Well, okay, if mom's going to get a workout, and I'm going to get my way. You know, and we do that a lot of times and um, and you have to give in some areas.
Speaker 3:I mean you can't, you can't do it all. I just wanted to circle back and kind of close the loop on that is one of the things the doctor said was I get it, it's tough, but know that the food habits that you are exemplifying right now your kids are paying attention to and that's how they're going to eat when they get older, and that, to me, kind of lit a new fire under me in terms of eating right and and what I was going to go back to circle back to mom again is the example she set fitness wise. She walked three miles every day religiously, and I think that is something that was a seed that was planted in us in terms of long-term fitness. So, for those that are taking care of themselves and this doesn't necessarily apply to an intense training block of a marathon, necessarily, but no to the fitness habits that you're able to set are also being watched, exemplified, and the odds of your kids taking care of themselves in a similar way go up exponentially.
Speaker 1:Uh, if it's something that, if it's a habit that they see you practicing over a long period of time, the goal is longevity of health right we talk about longevity of life, but longevity of health is the important part, and I, when I, when you talk about mom and her walking, and I think we just didn't understand it back then she's like I had no idea.
Speaker 1:Her, the girls. That was their time to gossip and talk about what's going on and like now, like that is such a huge part. It's not the runs, it's the, it's the companionship, it's the conversations and that, thinking back now in her thirties and forties when she was going through that, she was doing the same exact thing that we're doing from that, but it's trying to get the longevity of health. But in mom's case she did a lot of the things right and she got a bad. You know she, she passed away at 70 and she did all the right things. So there's no solution that's going to guarantee you longevity of health. You're playing the odds and you're trying to find ways to do it.
Speaker 1:My situation on the food's a little bit different. My wife has. She comes from a long line of of farming family and she's an excellent cook. She is huge. She does a ton of research on the processed food. She gets to stay at home and make this a big focus, but she is all about cooking natural foods. We first started. The easy button was to try one of those services where they deliver the healthy foods. I'm pretty sure we tried them all over time.
Speaker 1:Um, that's kind of our rmo and then she just like she listens to things and we joke because, like you said, there's so many things. It's like you know she's gonna kill me for this. But like she changed her toothpaste and I'm not willing to change it and, like you know, the regular crest or whatever has fluoride in it and I'm like the ongoing joke is, everything causes cancer, like everything that I currently do. Everything that I want to do is causing cancer and every time it's like but she's making subtle shifts and things in my life and the kids lives that we're probably going to thank her for later. It's, it's, it's that we're probably going to thank her for later. It's fun now to give her a hard time, but she cooks with natural food.
Speaker 1:She makes meals. I have a home-cooked meal every single night that's not processed and she's really trying to drive it home with the kids because we were doing a lot of the processed stuff and we still do. Like the kids still want to go get chicken nuggets and things like that, but we'll do homemade stuff and so you almost have to have a full-time person If you're going to try to eat naturally and cook it's. It is like I would say that commitment is probably three X the fitness commitment, especially if you, if you have a family, um so, and it's.
Speaker 1:It's so counter intuitive to what we see and how people tell you you should live your life. It's convenience, it's fast food, to what we see and how people tell you you should live your life. It's convenience, it's fast food, it's I mean, I think talking to a local owner of a fast food restaurant and 75% of their purchases are through the drive-thru, like everyone wants it delivered, they want it there and it's massively processed. And I think we're going to find, with RFK and the and office, that there's going to be a lot of changes around that, because it is hard to sustain a healthy lifestyle when we're consuming food that way.
Speaker 3:I want to come back to something you said, tj, I think super important, which is the chunking, and we talked about this with running in one of our earlier episodes, and we talked about atomic habits and like just wake up at 6am and put on your workout clothes and then just literally drive to the gym and then just drive home, don't do anything Chunking. So this is something I'm trying. We'll see how it works. One of the things I've set a goal for this year is to make four meals with the boys, like from scratch. Four meals we're talking once every three months. This is it when we're talking about. Chunking is the very bare minimum. So the first thing that we made was these sweet potato nuggets, which is a good vegetable, and I'll tell you what shocked me how long it takes sweet potatoes to soften.
Speaker 3:I put them in. The recipe said it took like six minutes and you put this thing of water and you put them in and after you peel them or whatever, and then apparently I didn't dice them up small enough but I had to put these things in the microwave for like 35 minutes, you know, over, like you know, trying to finally get them to mash as a whole.
Speaker 3:nother animal, some people probably find humor in that, but so we finally got them mashed enough and you did the breadcrumbs and whatever. We made this and the next thing we're going to make. The boys want to make quesadillas, which isn't super difficult, but we're going to try and make the tortillas from scratch, just to like to start the learning process Very, very small. I think chunking it out is extremely important. But I wanted to come back to you guys with a question. We've we've kind of gone all over the place mentally and physically in terms of but what would you say the pillars are? If you're talking about the pillars of recovery, right, Some people would say, I mean, I just wrote down food, sleep, hydration. We haven't really talked about exercise. For you guys, what are the three to five pillars of kind of overall wellbeing, recovery elements?
Speaker 2:For me and this has happened over time because these are things I thought I could never tackle. I never thought I'd figure out diet, I mean maintaining this weight over the last 13 years. For the first, probably eight years of that it was I ran to eat you know, we've talked about it right Sleeves of Girl Scout cookies. One of my kids wanted Girl Scout cookies on Friday. I'm like no, they cannot come in the house because it's a wrap.
Speaker 2:So I would say that for me, food is a big one and I'm still learning every day. So eating healthy is a big one. Exercise is a big one, sleep is a big one, and then I guess it also falls into diet, but it's substances and trying to be and I don't want to come off as, because I'm not necessarily a quote sober person I didn't do this because I have a problem, at least I don't think I do, but you know I would say those are the big three for me is physical exercise, getting enough sleep I try to be in bed by nine o'clock and eating as good as I can.
Speaker 1:I was asking myself a question. I was on vacation a couple of weeks ago and I said what? And I was talking to my wife about this and I said what things does a day have to include for you to just have an awesome day, to where you feel like? And so I'm going to answer it from that point of view. For me to feel like, I've, like I don't know I don't want to use the word happiness or joy, but if I have good sleep, I get my exercise in, I have a problem to solve or some type of challenging mental thing that I can, where I feel like I've solved something or I've added value to someone. Those almost have to happen first, and then I can relax and lean into family time, which I also want to enjoy, spending time with my kids and kind of having some.
Speaker 1:But if I have to get physical fitness in, I've got to solve a problem, I've got to get good sleep, and food plays a component, one of the things we haven't talked about. But they're finding that what you eat actually affects your emotions, especially in kids. It affects so many things. So I think that when we were in the Dominican, the food we ate there was so clean. We all felt so good. It was just incredible. So those are things. When I look up every day, if I check all those boxes, I'm feeling pretty good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, clearly I'm glad you kind of framed it that way, because clearly I think we've kind of blended well-being and recovery in this discussion. But yeah, I think the only thing for me and some of this just relates to my goals, I think also spending some time spiritually, I find, and whatever that is for different people. I think mentally also helps. But I think you guys have hit on the the important things you know from a recovery perspective. Um, sleep is is just so important.
Speaker 1:Huge yeah it is.
Speaker 3:I think so hard you know in.
Speaker 2:in terms of the whole wrapping up and kind of going back to the points, I'd love to ask that same question as it relates to staying motivated and getting it dialed in and keeping in maintenance mode in terms of pillars, you know, like, what are the things that? What are the mantras, what are these strategies? If you just had to summarize them for each of you in regard to staying motivated and staying the path on this long-term journey, Well, when it comes to food, none is easier than some for me.
Speaker 1:So, like Lent, no sweets. So much easier than like I'm just going to have a cookie, right. So that's kind of a mantra for me. And then, when it comes to exercise, it's all about community. That's kind of a mantra for me. And then, when it comes to exercise, it's all about community. Gamification and community are by far the cornerstones for long. I think those are the long, those from a longevity standpoint, consistency, consistency standpoint, gamification and community are the two most important things. If you want to do anything long-term, you need community and gamification for sustainability. My opinion Okay.
Speaker 3:You know, one of the things we haven't talked about that I just wanted to add and I wanted to get your guys' take on real quick before I jump in on those is you know we talked about not doing it all right and how difficult it is to do it all to be good on the sleep and be good on the exercise and be good on the food. I've also found at times those things can compound and actually build momentum in a positive way, like when you have a good run then you want to eat good after that because you don't want to just ruin that good workout you have. Or if you eat really well, you want to work out on top of that to build that. Talk about that. Have you guys experienced that at all in terms of doing something positive in one area of your life, building momentum for some of the others?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that I'm at a point now in my fitness journey that I never thought I'd be at. In one of the earlier episodes I think we talked about balance and doing what it takes. Like you said, right now is not the time of your life to train for a race, and so it's like you know, you start years and years ago and it's also relates to chunking it up and you're like, okay, you know, man, 40 miles a week is a ton. I'm just going to do this, I'm going to eat what I want because I'm, because I'm running and you know I'll have drinks at night, I have to travel for work and host customers and all these things, and I'm just going to live life as normal. There's no way I'm ever going to not do this during a training block, et cetera, et cetera. But I think over time, as your context changes and you build context, it's like for me it's been more macro, so it's been more okay, I've kind of got this fitness thing mastered. I can fit in 60 miles a week, stay relatively healthy. Do you know the most intensive workouts? I've kind of got this mastered. What's next, you know?
Speaker 2:And then next for me was let's adjust the sleep a little bit, because I'm burning the candle at both ends. And then, okay, I've got to sleep down. Now I don't feel bad going to bed at nine o'clock. And then the next step was okay, food, all right, same with you. None is better than some. So let's try this intermittent fasting. Oh, this actually works for me, versus one month doing nothing and then having it come back 2X the next month. You know no sweets, and then the next month you know no sweets, and then the next month I'm eating twice as much.
Speaker 2:So then that was the next step. And then it was like man, I'll never do physical therapy. There's no way I can do, um, any PT because it's so boring and so monotonous. But I found myself because I want to continue running at a competitive level doing a little bit more of that. So it's over time, as I accomplished different things and feel like I'm, uh, satisfied with that particular area of life. And next will be, especially with my condition. The Mediterranean diet is supposed to be good for rheumatoid arthritis, so next it's going to be okay. We're not going to do as much processed food. We're going to focus on fish, we're going to focus on other types of carbohydrates and things like that. So it'll be that, but it's over time accomplishing each of these areas to get to the ultimate goal.
Speaker 3:I will just hit my mantras or my, and I think there's kind of two major themes today, in addition to overall wellbeing. I've kind of categorized these into recovery and motivation. So from a motivation perspective, to me the three is three Gs goals, gratitude and gamification. So for motivation, it's having something out there that you're shooting for, having that gratitude that you have the ability to do it and mentally be willing to spend time there to sit in that. And then the gamification, which goes back to what you said building that positive feedback loop in there. So when you have long periods of delayed gratification, you've got things to kind of keep you going along the way.
Speaker 3:From a recovery perspective, sleep, space and schedule. So sleep, we've talked about that several times. I just think it's really underrated. Space, I think mental space in today's day and age there's so much noise and so much distraction Finding some time just space, whether it's doing nothing, this is a thing and a lot of people don't know. This wall staring, wall staring is a thing now to desensitize to dopamine. And I'm not saying you've got to wall stare, but you don't. I mean just. And when I say space, this isn't space to go veg out on Netflix or something else. We're talking space, I think mentally is just so important. And then last is schedule. If you don't schedule recovery, it's not going to happen. It is the last thing on the priority list is one of those things that is as important but it's not urgent. We have so many urgent things that are pressing for our time. The important things will not happen if they don't get scheduled. So for me, sleep space and schedule your recovery.
Speaker 2:I would say to for my motivation. The last three would be goals, gamification and exploration. I think a lot of times you guys have spoke at length about goals and gamification, but from an exploration standpoint and I struggle with this like you said, hey, are we going to sign up for, uh, you know, the Spartan race? And in my mind I'm like hell, no, and I didn't, um, because I'm fear there. You know, there's so much of my identity tied up in other things. Um, you know, I've thought about doing high rocks and some of these other different, you know.
Speaker 2:But there's this. You know, we're wired we've talked about this in prior episodes to one to be excellent, and there are people like that that, just if they know they're, you know, somebody said this about Michael Jordan. I was listening to this the other day. They're like if he wasn't good, if he didn't know he could beat you, he wouldn't play the most competitive guy, he just wouldn't do it. And so it's like I don't know if I want to put myself out there at a Spartan race, because I'm used to being in the top 1% or top 5% of whatever I'm doing no-transcript, the running umbrella. But that exploration for me really keeps things fun because there's always something new. You haven't done that you could turn over and that you never thought you could do or never thought you would do. So I would encourage exploration on top of those other things.
Speaker 1:I think you guys nailed it. So I hope you guys found some really good stuff. Recovery, super important Motivation, how to keep going these are some of the ways that we've continued to keep going over time and hopefully some of that resonates with you. I am going to challenge TJ to put together some stuff, maybe just a couple of things that we can get out that you're looking for a place to start. Maybe you don't have a community or you don't know how to gamify. You're like I just need a little bit of an on-ramp. We'll try to put something to get together for you and get it out there as well. So thanks for tuning in.