The Dailey Edge Podcast
Join hosts Trent, TJ, and Todd Dailey as they explore the intersections of technology, culture, fitness, and personal growth. Through engaging discussions and personal anecdotes, the trio dives into topics ranging from childhood gaming nostalgia and cutting-edge fitness tech to the pursuit of happiness and lifestyle choices. Whether reminiscing about epic gaming marathons, sharing tips for staying on the forefront of fitness trends, or unraveling the complexities of modern life, The Dailey Edge delivers thoughtful insights, lively debates, and relatable stories for listeners of all walks of life.
The Dailey Edge Podcast
Episode 9: Is There a Right Way to Believe? Challenging Religious Norms
This episode invites listeners into a heartfelt dialogue about the complexities of faith and spirituality within the context of family relationships. Our journeys through and beyond Catholicism prompt discussions about belief, perception of truth, and respect for differing spiritual paths.
• Exploring the tension between religious upbringing and personal faith
• The significance of family dynamics in discussions about belief
• The importance of seeking understanding in faith conversations
• Analyzing the implications of interpreting scripture literally vs. metaphorically
• Navigating the challenges of differing denominations and beliefs
• The role of spirituality in contemporary life and its benefits
• The impact of cultural changes on religious practices and beliefs
• Encouraging a unified approach to belief systems among family members
• Strategies for interceding for others while respecting their beliefs
Welcome to the Daily Edge where we bring you the latest insights, opinions and thought-provoking conversations to give you that competitive edge in life, business and beyond. Let's go Welcome to episode 9 of the Daily Edge here with my brothers, tj and Todd, and today we're going to do one of the unthinkables. They tell you and family to not talk about politics or religion and we're going to dive into religion. All three were raised Catholics and we all have kind of ventured off and found our own faith and journey in Christianity in different ways. So this one could get interesting, excited to have these debates. They actually happen quite a bit.
Speaker 1:I'm going to lead off with the quote that probably still haunts me to this day, when my dad realized that we are part of a Wesleyan church now and he quotes upon my rock or upon this rock, I built my church. That Peter meant the Catholic church and it's the only church. So that still bothers me to this day, that my father believes that if you're not Catholic you can't go to heaven, which I don't know why. You don't want your dad to think that. But yeah, so we'll just throw that firebomb out there and let's jump right in.
Speaker 2:Let's let the Catholic pick it up.
Speaker 3:I think what's interesting about religion? That has kind of fascinated me, because we just got off of an episode talking about how we need to seek to understand and kind of be more well-rounded and not really take a strong position. The interesting thing about religion is there's a lot at stake, potentially so. If you look at just Christianity in general, I think the premise is heaven or hell for eternity. Right is the premise. And what I think is interesting about that is I was actually I won't call them out, but it was a family member that we were interacting with, an immediate family member in our family that we were interacting with the other day and they said you know, I just with religion, I just wish everyone could kind of do their own thing and everybody needs to do their own thing and like, not infringe upon. And this is a kind of a disposition that I had for a very long time. It's like, hey, you know, you do you, I'll do me, and like that's it.
Speaker 3:What's interesting about religion that challenges that notion a little bit is what's at stake. If, for example, I felt like I knew the truth, let's just hypothetically say that, and I know a lot of people say, well, how do you know the truth, you know this is all you know. There's a lot of translation over the last 2000 years. Let's just say I found some sort of piece or discovered something that I knew, some sort of answer and way for both of you to get to heaven for eternity, versus being in hell for eternity, right, like, let's go down that hypothesis. That is a little bit of a different disposition. Now I could sit there and say you know what you guys just do. You, I've got this, you know, I really think I've got this answer and I could either, like I got to have my brothers in heaven for eternity, or my family members or my friends or whoever, so I have got to share this. Like I have somehow got to have my brothers in heaven for eternity, or my family members or my friends or whoever, so I have got to share this, I have somehow got to convince them of this so they can be on this side as well.
Speaker 3:Versus you do you? If you end up there, great, if you don't, great. Or if it is even heaven and hell at the end of the day, cool. So that's what's interesting to me about religion is it's a little bit of a different perspective, cause I think a lot of people are like, don't you even start to put your religion, push your religion on me, like like I'm going to do my thing, you do yours. But if someone truly feels like they have the truth or the answer, there's a little bit of a different approach here. If some same with me, like I might want them to kind of push on me to, you know, if they do have something that I haven't thought through or considered, so I can have that eternal gain. So I'll just leave it at that. But I think that's what's interesting about religion versus a lot of these other positions where there's nothing really meaningfully at stake.
Speaker 2:I think you know this has been interesting, as we've talked a lot about over the course of our episodes the exposure to new thoughts, new ideas through new media. And I think, when it comes to religion, you know, for us, being raised Catholic and on our dad's side at least a long line of Catholics, like that was just it. You know, I went to a Catholic school for eight years. You did for a couple, you didn't, and so you know there was this mindlessness to it. You just went to church, you said the things, you acted a particular way. There were a couple major points that you focused on, whether that be the Ten Commandments, the Golden Rule or whatever. We had Bible every single day or religion every single day, so we would focus on different passages and it's just something that you took at face value. So as media has grown and as people have started to look at different specific approaches or different, I guess, have different micro philosophies as it relates to the Bible or religion and now our parents took the Bible not all of them, but you see a lot more people from back then take it literally like to the letter, and there's instances that you do and you don't on the same specific sets of scripture.
Speaker 2:Where I struggled personally was I didn't feel like it spoke to my curiosity. I want to understand the why. I want to understand. You know I don't necessarily need to know for sure, but if this particular story exists in the Bible, I need to know why it exists. And if we're going to take it metaphorically, I want to understand why we're taking it metaphorically and how that serves the greater good of humanity or how that serves.
Speaker 2:So I've gone on a journey where you know I backed completely out when I left high school, really from daily or twice a week mass and in the last probably couple of years I've been exposed to Christianity more and more through you're both involved in your churches. The track and cross-country club that we deal with, that we're involved in, is a Christian-based and so I've started to go back to church and explore this a little bit more. But, like that's where I always struggle with it. You know you were talking about evangelism and you know I see a lot of similar approaches to religion that you do to politics. Like people are, they don't look at the nuance and they're very aggressive and it's one way and they're evangelical in a certain manner.
Speaker 2:And if you don't do this. You are this, and there's a lot of negativity around religion, because you know, especially the politics religion combination where you'll see people angry at Christians because they believe, because a lot of times they're so judgmental. Yet the ethos of Christianity is the exact opposite, and so I struggle with that and I've done a lot of exploring recently to try to make some of these connections on my own, because, you know, I believe it to be true and I believe there to be a God and I believe the tenets of Christianity, but at the same time, I haven't found something yet that speaks to me the way that I want it to speak.
Speaker 1:I'd be interested in your guys' take, I think, where a lot of debate is. So there's obviously Christianity and there's other religions, and again to each their own, and we're going to speak on this mostly from a Christianity standpoint, but from different denominations and such. So I would be interested to kind of dive into why do you think there is so much disconnect and why is there so much arguing and debate around denominations in general. Like I've tried to take Christianity as the Bible is the truth and there is different interpretations of the Bible and everyone thinks they have the version. But when I try to in its simplest form, because I go back to, I think religion is where a lot of the legalism has come in, because there's a lot of rules and when you grow up in an environment like that it can be daunting and I think there is a part of that that will push people away.
Speaker 1:And I'll also say all of this no one here has a seminary background. So we're all talking this as dads and so as though we are deep in our faith. We are talking this as non-professionals, so I just want to clarify that. So there's this inner debate, denominationally, about who's right, who's wrong, and it's like man, it just feels like we're all on the same team. We all believe in Jesus. Why do you believe that even exists Well?
Speaker 3:it's a good question. I think it probably exists for the same reason that the denomination split off in the first place, right, which is I think it's well documented. Over the years there's been corruption in the church and I would say, you know, for the first thousand years that was the Catholic Church and then kind of the Greek Orthodox split off a little bit there.
Speaker 3:But even as we think, in Western America, like that was, there was a, there was corruption and there was selling indulgences and like there were some things that went off the rails and there were some people that saw that, that imperfection that was coming from human involvement, and they tried to write that within the confines of the walls of the church and others said, starting with Martin Luther, like I'm out, right, here are the reasons I'm out. And so I think the fact that those were substantial enough, because religion I mean it's a it's I think it has been historically more of a centerpiece of life than it is today in today's society, I think historically like and you go back to even Jewish times, like prior to Christ, like it was everything, and we can get into some of that like, and we can get into some of that like and why it was such a bizarre thing that so people didn't align with that, I think still holds true today and manifests in different societal situations.
Speaker 1:When you think about one of the other, the big is spiritual versus religious, and we hear that a lot. So when we're talking in the form of some people like I don't feel comfortable in a church, I don't want to be part of a religion, what would you say to them? Or maybe TJ, even from your example of, like you know me and my wife when we got married we went to a bunch of different churches to find the right fit for us and one of the interesting parts is that a lot of times the church you're born into maybe doesn't have the worship style that you love. So there's a worship component and then there's a sermon component and with the Catholic Church, nothing against the Catholic church.
Speaker 1:I was more going through the motions at that time and it was more routine for me and they would read the gospel and then the sermon was maybe 15 minutes. It was short and sweet, and I went to a church now where I have one of the highest intellectual pastors around and he just takes things so deep and I just find there's so much more meaning in my life and they're so relatable and it's just like the passion and the worship there just suits me better. I'm not saying it's better than anything else, because you got to find your style too, and so part of this, I think, is the style of how you worship or how you like to receive content, and where we're at now at College Wesleyan has allowed me to fulfill that need. Do you think there's anything there? Would you guys talk about different styles and trying to find the right fit?
Speaker 2:I mean, that's my issue, right, and I see, I think the spiritual side of things people who are more spiritual and I know atheists is a complete counter to that, but I think it is along the same lines. Is they just like? I think atheism a lot of times is and I know this is a little off, but it's like an intellectual superiority thing. How can you believe about this magic person in the sky? There's, but but I also think that's a cop-out, like that's an easy way to just you know, I don't want to learn about this. I don't want to try to understand if there's a physiological connection or how conscience plays into this or all of these things. I just want to just throw it.
Speaker 2:And I think spirituality is.
Speaker 2:I haven't found a substantive or set of facts that leads me to believe that or that's convinced me that things happen one way versus another.
Speaker 2:But I also haven't found facts on the other side that can connect me specifically to a specific God and a specific savior, if you will. So I think that's where you start to go when you talk about spirituality versus. For me, I wanted to understand out of curiosity, kind of like we've talked about in prior episodes, like I want to be able to make this connection. I, I, I know there's going to be some element of having to have faith. You're not being able to see something and believe that it's there but at the same time, you know, I want to continue to research and uncover and, like you know, you talked about Wesley Huff in a prior episode. I love that man, you know, like somebody who is spending their life looking at ancient texts and finding these things and how they inform other elements of the faith itself and how it makes it more real, if you will. And then some of the work that, like a Jordan Peterson's doing, where he's trying to take the Bible and tie it into our physiology.
Speaker 3:Those things are really helping me come full circle because, again, I haven't gone to a sermon, I haven't gone to a church where there's a particular element that is really speaking to me, yet I think what I've probably heard and what I align with is, in the Catholic circles, as you might call it, is, I think most would say that hour's for God, not for you, like this is your hour to come and kind of worship, and not necessarily for your enjoyment or pleasure, or like hey, seek the setting that is most enjoyable for you for that hour. So I would say that and I guess for me what I have appreciated about the Catholic Church in part is, while the challenges over time have been well documented, is the consistency of it. It's held pretty steadfast and gained a reputation societally for being slow to change, and gained a reputation societally for being slow to change, for being kind of caught up in old times, and that's part of what I appreciate about it is there's just a steadfastness and there's a consistency and it borders on literal interpretation of Scripture. Right, that's kind of where it was founded and it's kind of stuck to. And for me there's an element of that that is enticing in the face of a society that is seeking a set of rules that are more convenient and more enjoyable for the lifestyles that we are trying to live. So that's where I kind of find myself, maybe not as much associating with a Christian denomination, and again, some of this you can go back to.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of it is in the weeds of the literalness of the words in the scripture right. But, like when I look at even the symbols and this is maybe relevant because it goes back to the episode we just talked about If you look at the symbols of the Catholic and the Christian church actually I have one on the Catholic church is Jesus is on the crucifix or on the cross right, which is crucifix. So there's this element of suffering that I think is embraced by the Catholic church. I think their, their mindset is a little more of um of that.
Speaker 3:Like the, there is going to be an element of suffering and almost to the extent that thank you, trent, you've commented on this at times you have to earn it a little bit, Like you've got to earn your place in heaven, where I think on the Christian side it is more uh, as long as you believe you're going to heaven, there's not really as much of a implication or a posed, not imposing as much on lifestyle choices or certain things. I mean some denominations there are right, I think, in the Wesleyan church in terms of you know, alcohol consumption or dancing, there are different things, but I do feel like on the Christian cross, right without Jesus, it's more about the resurrection and the redemptiveness and more on the focus on as long as you believe, kind of you're going there. So those are just a couple of things coming off the last episode, embracing that suffering a little bit. That I just maybe align more with as well as the literal interpretation of the Scripture suits me better.
Speaker 1:But weigh in on that. Yeah, no, I think those are good points. I'm sitting here I just kept thinking about how Jesus lived his life and for me, regardless of religion and I would put Catholics as Christians we all believe in Christ. So we all have different beliefs within that, but we're all our faith believers that Christ was, the Christ is our Savior, and so I think for me one of the interesting things is is like Jesus lived a pretty miraculous life and I think about, as you read through the Bible, the different things he did, the communities he spent time in, the way he acted, the way he lifted people up, and I believe that true freedom and this is where physiology and mental and spiritual and we'll talk about this in another episode is like you know, business is a spiritual game. It's like there's certain parts in life that you just can't get through without some, I think, without a spiritual divine intervention, at least without not losing your mind. But there's this opportunity for us to live a life like Christ and whatever that you run into, or however you get to that point, because I think again, what's the point of a church? What's the purpose of a church? I think for me it goes back to. We've talked about gamification and community, right, so having a community that can help encourage and make you consistent, and so that's where I think the church plays the role. But for me it's how can I live a life like Christ? And if I look at how he exemplified and how he lived his life, it was helping other people. You know it was obviously praying to the Father, and then I think about all the different ways that he did that, and so that's where I'm trying to align is like, how do I come alongside other people and help, encourage and promote? And so that's kind of the approach that I've taken over the last several years and one of the ways that we've started to do that.
Speaker 1:There's a team that I'm involved in and a guy named Jeff Clark has this method called preying on offense, and we call it proof. But preying on offense is how can you intercede for other people in your circles? And the premise around it is it's as easy as one, three, two. You claim one space which could be your place of work If you're a homemaker, it could be at home but you claim a space, you pick three people, three people that God's kind of laid on your heart in that space, and then there's two sides of prayer. So there's God what do you want me to know? And God, what do you want me to do? And so I'm praying, and what's been really interesting about this process is my prayer life used to go into, you know, thanking God for a bunch of stuff, or asking him for a bunch of stuff, and a lot of times when I wouldn't get prayers answers answered, I would leave frustrated and be like, oh, he never answers, never answers anything.
Speaker 1:You know, he never healed mom and I wanted to see mom still be around. And you created this frustration. And throughout this process it's been really fun for me because I'm asking different questions. God, what are you doing in Todd's life that I can walk alongside him or show me a way that I can? You know how should I help TJ in these manners?
Speaker 1:And I'm asking questions and doing things that are allowing me to go to God for the people around me, and it fundamentally changes my relationships. It changes the way I think it changes the way I approach things, and so I'm going into all of this and, yeah, we have these. We have churches and communities that are good, but, like as a lay person, that isn't educated in, you know, seminary and I don't have all. I'm trying to figure out a way to. I have to believe in something greater than myself because I just I just do, but I have to find a way to intercede for the people around me and I have to do it in a way that's not going to make them uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:If I have to believe in something greater than myself, because I just do, but I have to find a way to intercede for the people around me and I have to do it in a way that's not going to make them uncomfortable. If I came to you and said, hey, man, I'm going to pray for you and we're going to do this thing, and you talk about making it uncomfortable and awkward, right, it's like how can I intercede? And so I'm constantly pulled back into living my life the way Christ did, and that's really been my focus and I know there's we can talk about the details and we believe it's the Eucharist or not, but it's about inclusivity. It's about being part of these groups and bringing people together and praying for people and wanting the best for people, and that's kind of where I've centered myself on Christianity is. I want to live a life like Christ, because it was so special. We're still talking about it 2,000 years later.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say. I think one of the things that the Catholic Church would say and other apologists of the Catholic Church would say I think Jesus' life has been partially misinterpreted. So yes, and I think what you talked about, what Jesus is really good at, was meeting people where they were at right. Socially misinterpreted. So yes, and I think what you talked about, what Jesus is really good at, was meeting people where they were at right the woman at the well or the tax collector or whoever right. He met these people where they were at and he showed grace. Right Now, in most of these interactions, if you look in there, there's some sort of statement or similar statement towards now go and sin, no more right. And I think that's the beginning. That is the beginning of the part that I think gets left out or misinterpreted.
Speaker 3:Jesus was a very polarizing figure. I think most people and I would say and again this isn't like I'm not saying bad, but I think on the stereotype, on the more Christian side is that Jesus was kind of loving and loved everyone and it was just like he was very passive and accommodating and just. It was all about love. I think he was also a very polarizing figure. That I think doesn't get as much attention outside of the Catholic circle and the Catholic circle that is embraced a little more to where he has challenged people now go and sin no more. I mean, clearly he was polarizing enough that they crucified him right, like he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
Speaker 3:He was very, um, uh, very direct in how he stated things. There was a time where he, you know in the Bible where it talks about like I came, you know, with a sword to divide mother and child and divide families. So he's used in a number of. Again, some of this is depending on the willingness to accept the literalness of the words in the Bible, right, but I think he was a very polarizing figure that while he met people where they were at and showed grace, also demanded uh, and was very clear, didn't mince a lot of words about the way people should live if they were going to spend eternity with him in heaven. Um, so I don't know what your thought is on that or, tj, maybe you want to jump in on this, but I think that's a misconception. I think that polarizing, agitating part gets left out a lot, because anytime people talk about Jesus like well, jesus was loving and he didn't right. Well, he actually pissed people off to the point where they nailed his ass to a cross.
Speaker 2:Well see, I think where you run into problems and I found a little bit of comfort and solace in kind of some of this approach is the more you cling to the literalness of, and this is what's so intriguing. Yes, christianity and Catholicism is a large religion, but with the seeds of doubt that are being sown through consumption of media nowadays, the literalness like interpreting the Bible literally provides, gives the opportunity to sow more doubt. What I mean by that is like, again, we talked a couple of episodes ago about, back in the day, the newspaper was gospel. Like what you got in and like that was it, and I think you know the bible was, for all intents and purposes, the first really widely distributed, you know, collection of stories um across the old world, and and has continued since then, and I think it's lasted for a reason, I think what. What is happening, though, is, as people are getting exposed to different you can call them conspiracy theories or whatever they're beginning to question more, and when you look at the Bible through a literal lens, I remember Jordan Peterson sitting down with Richard Dawkins, right Famous atheist and Dawkins Dawkins' story. I appreciate Peterson. I know that he's very polarizing as well. I appreciate him at least thinking through different approaches, where Dawkins just goes back to you can't really believe that there was a real Cain and Abel, or you can't really believe that he turned water into wine, or you can't really believe that X, y, z happened. But in the way that Peterson was rebutting that, refuting that. And the way that Peterson was rebutting that, refuting that was he was talking about some of these stories from a metaphorical perspective and that you know he made a comment I was listening to his book again on the way up here that the best leaders aren't the people with the.
Speaker 2:You know, you aren't a good leader because you have money. You're not a good leader because you have a particular status. You're a good leader because you have money. You're not a good leader because you have a particular status. You're a good leader because you have vision and you're a great storyteller. That's what makes someone a good leader. And the people that have written the Bible, they were great storytellers.
Speaker 2:Looking at the Bible through that particular lens and not necessarily an as literal lens, I think it provides you a better opportunity to spread that word right, because again, somebody a hundred years ago, most of what they're getting from a written word perspective is like, I'm just okay, it's cool, like, and they see the Bible like, that's, that's the truth, there's nothing telling me otherwise.
Speaker 2:Now, there's so much out there that's telling you otherwise. Like, how you know it's, it's that much easier to denounce things and and and come and say there's no way, like, again it goes back to I mentioned earlier and I'll stop creationism. Right, and that's highly aligned with people who believe the Bible to the most literal sense, that the world is 6,000 years old. Again, you're telling the majority of the 8 billion people in the world that every form of science that they've ever been exposed to is bullshit. Geology is bullshit, you know, like all of these other things, by saying that everything in the Bible. What's intriguing to me is that if God's purpose of establishing this religion was moving it forward, you would think that we would find a way to adapt it so that it was more digestible by people who have access to the information we have access to today.
Speaker 3:I would say that's a slippery slope in the sense that if we do believe there is truth in the Bible, that we compromise the truth simply to spread. We've actually had this. This has come up in quite a few conversations with different spiritual groups lately, and Pope Francis is a very polarizing figure in the Catholic Church right now because I think he is taking a little more of a I would say that sort of an an approach, right, like welcome, more, welcoming, more, like hey, you know, um in a, in an effort to uh, bring more people in. Now, when I say that approach, I don't think I mean I mean just within the Catholic community, right, where there's maybe this much give, like he's like here, like here, uh, with kind of some of the things that have been said, he has really pushed the envelopes and there's been a lot of friction there and I think the, the pushback is the truth is the truth, and if there's 10 of us at the end of the day that are aligned to the truth, it's better that that than 10 billion where the truth has been compromised and have this kind of loose understanding of what it is. So I think to your point, one of the things I would say about the Bible that we have to be mindful of as we're interpreting is terminology. I think that's the biggest thing that it was obviously written down in one language and then it's been translated.
Speaker 3:Now one of the things they'll say about the Bible is, from a historical accuracy perspective, it is one of it's unprecedented.
Speaker 3:The number of copies of the Bible in the different languages that so closely align with each other in terms of the factual documentation, like well outperforms most of what we consider to be common history in history class, like you look like Alexander the Great or like all these other historical events.
Speaker 3:Like the amount of documentation of those type of events relative to what there is for the Bible in that whole period of time is even corroboration from non-Christian sources. It's like wild. And so it's like if we're going to teach this other stuff as actual history, it pales in comparison. So I think it does come down to to what extent do you believe Scripture is divinely inspired and the specific, aside from the translations and being mindful of what words mean in Greek and how it was translated because I think some of that, there is human involvement here in the translations and being mindful of what words mean in Greek and how it was translated, because I think some of that you know, there is human involvement here in the translations you have to be mindful of. But it's that balance of okay, there's been some translation here, but how to not lose the truth in that process.
Speaker 1:I think that's interesting, though, because the truth is what is being interpreted, and it's being interpreted differently, I think, depending on who's interpreting it, so where someone might take something very literal from the Bible and some might say, no, this is a story that's going through these different. It's giving us life lessons, because this is the way to freedom. One of the things, though, that I would be curious about I think certain religions might be better at certain things. What I mean by that is let's put Christianity on a scale of 1 to 10. And let's say, a person out of 10 is a pastor for whatever church, and number one is like I've never even heard of the Bible right, and to get people, let's.
Speaker 1:Maybe the goal is to get people to attend it is, but what if you could get a million people from a one to a three or three to a five or five to a seven? And one of the things that's been interesting in my journey is what I'm realizing working in the business world and things that I'm running. At one point in time, I was three, Even though I was raised Catholic. I went through the repetitions, I was baptism, I went to college, made a lot of different decisions that wouldn't have fallen into any religion during that point in time. That would be helpful.
Speaker 3:I think we didn't really cover kind of our backgrounds. I know TJ kind of mentioned it, but you and I both for 9, 15 years and you maybe thereabouts like we were completely away from the faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, left church, went to school, went to Seattle, wasn't going to church at all. I think for me it triggered when I started having kids again and I'm like I got this precious miracle and for once in my life I didn't feel invincible, right. And so that's when we started going back to church and kind of figuring out our faith. But so I wonder this, I think so there was a point in time at IMG when I was like I needed, like I just felt like God was calling me to do more, and I'll never forget that night. I needed, like I just felt like God was calling me to do more, and I'll never forget that night. I always felt, I always feel like it's easier to send emails at night, because at night you're by yourself and you just feel a little more bold.
Speaker 1:I was sitting there Sunday night and I'm like we're going to do this meeting and it's going to be called Redefining Greatness, and we have worldly greatness and we have kingdom greatness and life is, you know, worldly success and kingdom success. And so I sent an email to the entire company and I said, hey, we're going to meet on Monday mornings at the time and we're going to meet at 8am. It's completely voluntary, but we're going to talk about worldly greatness and kingdom greatness and we're going to talk about spiritual things, but life things. And this was I don't know how many years ago maybe five to seven years ago and the whole company showed up and I remember just sweating. It's like okay, everyone's here, and it was like I just kind of went into it of like God was calling me to do more and that stage of my life I was still probably only a five or a four, but I was talking to people that were maybe ones, twos and threes and not all of them were, and then that's evolved over time.
Speaker 1:Now it's a biweekly thing that we do at the company, still like seven years later, and it's just I don't believe in my current role that I'm ever going to probably get to a 10, nor that I'm going to be the one that's trying to get someone to a 10, but I'm trying to have these conversations and one of the things I struggle with from and I hate to go back and not like I'm picking on Catholicism, but it's not as welcoming. It's like I go in there I can't get the Eucharist. Now I know why, and we can have that debate here in a minute. But like the part about welcoming people in to get the ones and twos and threes, to get curious enough, and maybe Catholicism is better about the people that are super intense and want to be super literal, and like there's a point that they may say well, I, I want to, you know, dive deeper and then they end up switching to Catholicism because that's better for that.
Speaker 1:I don't know. But trying to get people for each of us. We have a circle of influence and you have people around you from one step to the next and then trying to get people for each of us. We have a circle of influence and you have people around you from one step to the next and then trying to get yourself from one step to the next.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's 100% spot on. I think that's what Jesus did very well at. He met people where they were at, and I think that's the design of it. To what extent, I mean, god's only the one who's going to make an actual conversion or move people along that line. To your point, faith and works Like we're coworkers out there. If he is putting us in people's lives to um, you know, provide that, uh, be exemplary along those lines or share information about that. I think that's what we do, um to the best of our ability, and he will do the rest.
Speaker 3:But to your point, I think meeting people where they are at is very important and I think, in terms of Catholicism's rules and the exclusivity of it, certainly there are a lot of what you might call barriers to entry, and I think there's a double-edged sword to that. There's a beauty in that which is like this is not easy. You don't just show up and take the body and blood and go to heaven forever. It's just like there's a process, there's a learning, there's a suffering, there's an enduring, there's a journey here to get to the place where you're going to spend eternity with Jesus, versus like, hey, I'm just going to show up and believe and I'm there. So I think to your point, though the problem, the downside of that is it comes across as exclusive, like you're not good enough to be here, you haven't gotten far enough in your journey or whatever. So I think and that's what Pope Francis has been interestingly polarizing about, and I think you'll find even different priests and bishops take a little bit of a different line on that.
Speaker 3:I think it's always in the Catholic church like it coming from within, even the sermons on Easter, and are very encouraging towards those people like come and show up to church. Yeah, maybe not take the Eucharist right, because there's a lot of meaning behind that In the Catholic Church it's not just a symbol, it's actually the church would teach that's actually the body and blood of Jesus, like literally, which is kind of a hard thing for some to process. But that extent of that meaning is why it's kind of like hey, you can't just show up and take this, there's more, more to it. So I totally get the exclusivity perception, um, and as well as the other side of why it is there are more barriers to entry yeah, I mean, see that, for me, you mentioned something earlier about divine inspiration and I really don't care one way or the other.
Speaker 2:meaning that another thing that I may have mentioned to both of you maybe not is that one of the topics of conversation in the conversation I referenced earlier was whether it's divinely inspired from the top down or bottom up doesn't really matter. Meaning that whether God spoke to the gospel writers and or the writers of the Old Testament and divinely inspired them to go write these manuscripts, versus that, over time, there were these stories that resonated with how we are wired as humans. I heard a verse in the Bible this morning, something about the meek voice right, and I don't know the Bible as much as I used to anymore, but anyways or the quiet little voice essentially saying God is present in our conscience. Right, and I think, as humanity, we are all wired with particular. We know what's right. You have to have that, you have to have a way to perceive the world, you have to have stories to perceive the world through, and so you know.
Speaker 2:Again, going back to this, I don't.
Speaker 2:For me it doesn't matter whether or not it was divinely inspired or that these stories resonated with those internal beliefs or those internal moral compasses, enough to be the ones that were curated over time and ultimately lasted, because those are the most aligned with how we're wired as human beings.
Speaker 2:If we were here without that kind of general aim as to knowing what's good and what's not good, we couldn't perceive the world. It would just be, you know, you'd look at a wall and there'd be no way to perceive it. You'd see all these things and it would be coming at you in a particular way. So you know, for me I look at the Bible Again. I've been looking at it, I think, a little bit more metaphorically. I think there's a lot of good lessons there. I think there are a lot of things that we've talked about in our first eight or nine episodes that are underpinned by some of those stories in the Bible, and for me that allows me to embrace it as opposed to taking it literally, because I think there are some things when you take it literally that would make it difficult for me to engage in any way.
Speaker 3:I mean to your point. I think the cultural benefits of the Bible could come from either one of those, whether the stories just resonated or it was divinely inspired scripture. I think the cultural benefit of the Bible is going to be intact either way, because people have latched onto this From a religious or spiritual perspective. I would challenge the fact that if Jesus didn't actually rise from the dead, it's a whole different animal. It's more of a code of what a successful, happy, joyful, fulfilled even. You know, I think, based on the existence of some other religions, there could be some believe in God, but maybe not Jesus, and so I think Christianity would, in the Bible, change as drastically. If there's not an underlying truth to those stories, outside of the cultural impact it could still have the same positive cultural impact, but if he didn't actually rise from the dead, I would say it's a whole different animal.
Speaker 1:Are you saying that every story in the Bible is 100% literal? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 3:I would say there are some. No, I think there are some situations, particularly Genesis, that is more allegory in nature.
Speaker 1:Go to the New Testament. Do you think? Every single thing, every story in the New Testament is 100%?
Speaker 3:I would say literal. That's a big question.
Speaker 1:Well, but it's the foundation of how you pick which story you're going to.
Speaker 3:If you look at the New Testament, I would say I would tend to say yes, again a word here or there, but I would say absolutely. I would lean towards that more being absolutely literal.
Speaker 1:You would basically have to, because you can't say well, the resurrection, you can't pick and choose.
Speaker 3:Correct. Well, and that's the challenge. Right, that's where it gets interesting?
Speaker 1:Yes, again, none. That's the challenge, right? That's where it gets interesting, of like. And so again, none of us are scholars and we're not here to browbeat each other, but it's to understand that. That's the way you interpret it, correct. John 6 is the good example.
Speaker 2:And I'm completely the opposite, right Like for me, if the purpose, if the Bible is our railroad tracks, if this is the railroad tracks for humanity to end up where it's supposed to the ultimate, these are the railroad tracks.
Speaker 2:I don't really care how they got there. If the story of Jesus' resurrection was found to be the most compelling story and the thing that allowed this to perpetuate in a manner that all of these rules that are the Bible resonated with more people and it was more broadly accepted and we had a better, I don't care if it happened or didn't happen, but obviously that story resonated in a way that allowed this to propagate throughout humanity and stay around for a couple of thousand years. And we're seeing, with the shift of people towards Christianity and a lot of these cultural Christians coming about, everybody's realizing that these are the rules, man, these you know, even the allegoric stuff earlier on in the Old Testament, like the underlying meaning that you're finding through these things. It is what it is, you know. This is the true path forward and for me that's where it was like oh, okay, and it doesn't mean I don't believe in Jesus or that he did it, but I do. I see it just a little differently. So that's my thing.
Speaker 3:I think it's an and, and I do think I mean in the research that I've done. We all know I like to analyze things. There is a mountain of evidence of a lot of what happened, not only just the accuracy of the scripture, uh, of different copies of things, because if a lot of this was storytelling?
Speaker 3:right, I'm saying it doesn't matter, no I understand that to me because you're focused on the cultural benefit of it, which, which is totally fine. I just want to say like yes, you're within the confines of the cultural benefit. Uh, you're right, it doesn't matter. I would say, and irrespective of how it was formed, I'm saying, and I think there is a mountain of evidence that does point to it actually being true Uh, and part of me, I w, I was at a place and you know when I started talking about I stepped away for 15 years.
Speaker 3:I was very much at a place where I was like I had no affiliation. I remember going to confession for the first time in 17 years. I thought the church was going to burn down and it didn't. But I've gone through different phases and evolutions and research on this stuff and I've just been surprised at how much evidence has stacked up to support kind of what went down.
Speaker 3:Again, not only the accuracy, but if you look at even at we talked about religion how back in that day it was and this has nothing to do with Catholic versus Christian, this is just more the principles If you go back in that day, like Jewish tradition was like that was one A like religion and those sorts of traditions and practices and things. That and everything else was kind of noise right. That was the focus and when you look back at this point in time, like for a for society that was that rich in that tradition, to have so many people shift so quickly to this different set of beliefs, slash religion, was like it's very difficult to comprehend in historical purposes, to the point where they say like something had to have happened. That was completely ridiculous, that wouldn't have, because anything that would have happened in the confines of normal society would not have generated this sort of activity.
Speaker 3:When you look at there's just different things that the Case for Christ and the Case for Jesus are two really good books for those of you who are analytical and are looking to explore more into this are two really good books that get into some of the basis and foundation and talks about when the gospels were written. And obviously a lot of people know that a lot of this was passed down via storytelling for a period of decades in some cases before it was actually written down right. And a lot of us are like there were times where I was like, okay, I can't even remember what happened five years ago, let alone I'm going to recall something from 30 years ago and get it right, word for word right. But when you actually dig into the historical context of the time, storytelling was exactly how everything was conveyed.
Speaker 3:People were better at it, they were unbelievable, they could memorize hundreds of pages of things and so they were able to, over the course of time, very accurately pass on these stories. And then you hear about the different people that are attributed to the Gospels and how quickly it got written down relatively, and then again the accuracy of those. So it is interesting when you dig into it. I was pleasantly surprised. Well, I was surprised. Pleasantly surprised. Well, clearly I was pleasantly surprised where I'm in, where I am versus where I was in my faith. But I do think there was a lot, and I do tend to think there is an element of literalness. I mean, I guess I'm kind of a you know for me, while, again, you have to be mindful of certain words and translations. I am going to err on the side of a literal interpretation. Here's the question, because I think just real quickly it gets. It's a slippery slope when you stop?
Speaker 1:I think that's my question. If someone gets to point A to B, does it matter and like, is there a reason that you have to prove that everything in there is 100% accurate or that this absolutely like? If someone believes like in TJ's case, where he's like I don't care if it did or didn't, it's got me from point A to B, me from point A to B, why do we feel like we need to prove a point of no, it 100% is literal and this 100% happened or this is 100% the true. This is his body and his blood.
Speaker 3:Why do you have to believe it to that extent and push that on other people, I would say, to go back to what I started the conversation with, which is, technically, if right you say the hypothetical I know you guys don't sit on the side of the fence, but if your salvation depended on it, right? If, like John 6, for example we talked about that the other day he?
Speaker 3:says in there well, john 6 is basically when he feeds the 5,000 and they basically say hey, or he says hey, you're only interested in me because I'm feeding you. I am the true body and blood. It's through me that you'll get to heaven. He goes through these three or four iterations of this where people are like dude, what are you talking about? You're talking about eating your actual body and blood. This is weird. And he basically doubles down and he's like yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm talking about this is true food, my body and my blood. Like that is the true way to heaven.
Speaker 3:And then everyone like starts to like they say they quarreled among them. Like people were like whoa, like this is ridiculous, and even people who had dropped everything and came and followed him or whatever. He says it again. And like people start to peace out, like everyone's leaving, like this dude's, like he's off his rocker, he's lost his marbles, and then it's now. It's like him and the apostles, so this is like everything he's built. And they're like this is really hard, like what, what? And he's like do you want to leave too? Like he's like this is like this is my body and my blood, uh. And so he like triples down on that, so that being the foundation for the Eucharist in the Catholic church, right, they call it the discourse, the bread of life discourse, and so if I were to say that's to be literally interpreted, and someone who is not, you know, taking the body and blood, if he does say in there I forget exactly what the words are, but there's something to the effect of this is, how to get to heaven is through my body and my blood. And I believe that, if I believe that you guys are going to spend just hypothetically, right, if I believe you're going to spend eternity in hell and I'm not saying that's the case because I think the grace of God and I think, beyond religions, even denominations of other religions, people that are, I think the grace of God will play a big role in this over time. But if I believe this is a way you can guarantee right, then that would be the reason that I think I would be interested, or others would be interested, in quote unquote, pushing it on you. And quote unquote pushing it on you because it's a it's a very clear uh statement that says now you could say ah, you know, didn't mean that, even though he tripled down or quadrupled down on it, still figurative, still a symbol, or there are other things. Yeah, I know he said this, but he just kind of meant this or I'm not, you know.
Speaker 3:I think that's where it's a slippery slope. It's a slippery slope and I don't feel knowledgeable enough to and this is where I've had to set my ego aside at times. I don't feel knowledgeable enough to make that determination on my own. There's a magisterium of the Catholic Church who studies this stuff and it's been not only the experience but in studying for years and years and years, but passed down through a direct lineage of people who have kind of set the standards for this. And I guess I have had to. It's been difficult, I have had to kind of submit myself to that body of knowledge and experience that far exceeds my own. Because I think when people start to read the Bible and make their own interpretations without scholarly knowledge and experience, that's where I think it gets to be a slippery slope and with the pressures of today's society, why you can get denominations and or religions that basically just mold to whatever is convenient for society today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's a problem there, but I also think there's, like this happy medium which I think and again I'm going to speak maybe a little out of turn, you can correct me if I make any statements that are off kilter but you make the comment that Pope Francis is by limited exposure. You say he's polarizing because he's a little more inclusive in terms of the things that he's saying.
Speaker 2:And I wonder because you made a comment earlier about if we're the 10 people that have the whole truth. That's more impactful than if there's a million people that have half the truth or something to that effect. For me, that's more impactful than if there's a million people that have half the truth or something to that effect. For me, that's a foundational problem. If you have something that is not able to grow, then if you're the tenant, it dies with you. And I'm wondering and this is like making a lot of assumptions and really maybe posturing on divine intervention but is Pope Francis in the role that Pope Francis is in? Because the Catholic faith has hit a point where, if we continue to interpret the truth this particular way, we're going to continue to see a decline and eventually this faith that is supposed to be the way into heaven is gone and God has essentially failed humanity in terms of providing them a roadmap to the end.
Speaker 3:It's a fair question. I think continuing to meet people where they're at is the most important thing. We've even had debates about the chosen. Like the chosen is a great example where they have taken some liberties in their interpretation of the Bible and scripture to where some within the Catholic circles, who are very rigorous and strict, are less than pleased with some of the liberties that they took. However, it is attracting a much broader audience and, on the whole, bringing more people probably towards Christianity and or piquing an interest in Christianity. That will at least again move them in the right direction and potentially pique curiosity for deeper diving and deeper discovery. So I think you have to continue to meet people where they're at. I think that's important and I think the Catholic Church.
Speaker 3:There are pros and cons to being slow to change. I think they're slow to change, to give in to the pressures of society and the lifestyles that we're all wanting to live this day and age. I think there are some challenges with being able to also relate to people who are living lifestyles that are different from when the church was founded, who are living lifestyles that are different from when the church was founded, and so we've got to figure. I think as a church. We're trying to figure out Catholic church I think even Christianity too falls into this trying to figure out how to relate to people outside of the walls.
Speaker 1:You're constantly redeveloping, like you're redefining yourself to try to relate to people. I think the one thing that sticks in my mind is that whole this is my body and my true body and blood, as that could be interpreted as the way to heaven is through me, could be literal you're eating my actual flesh. Or it could be like I am the spirit, I am one. I am like this is a very and so when you take other religions that don't interpret it that way, that have the same amount of research, the same amount of scholarly, the same amount of all that, and it's interpreted two different ways, it's like, okay, no, this, and so I think that's where it gets interesting. And then, at what point, from an ego standpoint, do we feel like we have to? I think you hit it.
Speaker 1:It's like, well, if I'm responsible for someone else's salvation, I think that's an interesting thing about religion, because I don't think God would make someone else fully responsible for another person's salvation. However, there's the whole evangelistic side of things, which is really a lot, probably more progressive in some of the other denominations or jehovah witnesses. So there is something about, you know, going out and preaching the good word and the gospel. So there's a component of that. I don't think someone's salvation completely rides on your ability to go out and, and you know, bullhorn it. I think it's through intercession with God. I think that's where we really, when we go to war in prayer for other people, I think in private, that is a very positive way to intercede in someone's life.
Speaker 1:But I just think it's interesting because, regardless of the topic or regardless of the interpretation, we get so dead set in this is it? This is the interpretation. And back to TJ's point is I'm not sure it matters. I'm not sure it matters if it's literal or not. Literal in the sense of, like you need to prove to me that it's literal. So I know you're right and I need to prove to you that it's not literal, because this is the way I interpret it. But at the end of the day, we're both living a life of faith, with Christ at the forefront, trying to help people.
Speaker 3:It only matters if it's not literal. Not necessarily. My point is if it's not literal, then it matters, right.
Speaker 1:I mean, if it's not?
Speaker 2:literal it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:But if it actually is literal, and it is truly the case, that right, it's almost like that friend. They say like the friend, the true friend, will tell you, like when you're screwing up at something, and they'll give you that candid feedback. And the ones who aren't, we'll just kind of like, let you do your thing.
Speaker 1:But you're never going to know that with certainty. Well, I know you're never going to know that with certainty.
Speaker 3:Well, I know you're never going to know that with certainty, but that's where belief and faith comes in. So I think that's the tough thing is like well, because I can't prove it to you, that this verse, this is what Jesus meant in this verse, right, even though people said well, that's weird. Yes, eat my flesh, drink my blood, wait what? Yeah, no, so because that is and I think that's the case with a lot of this because you don't have 100% certainty, if I still believe that your salvation for eternity is on the line, should I just like well, I can't prove it, so you do your thing.
Speaker 1:Well, if you're saying that's the only way into heaven, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:It only matters if it's not literal.
Speaker 1:Well, even if that story, literal or non-literal, if you're saying that's the only way into heaven, is taking the Eucharist on a regular basis in a Catholic church, then I think we got another problem right. So if it's literal or non-literal and you're saying that's the only way into heaven, and that again is problematic for me in general, because I don't think that's the case, no, I don't think the and I would say, which makes it not as important if it's not.
Speaker 3:I love the fact that you disclosed all of this with we're not scholars or educated on all this.
Speaker 3:We're all talking professionalism, but I want to say there is, the Catholics would not, like the Catholic community would not, say we don't say who does go to heaven and who doesn't go to heaven. We are not. Nobody can guarantee or say someone has or hasn't gone to heaven. I think the saints that's a little bit of a gray area, because the Catholic Church does believe the saints are in heaven, based on the fact that they performed miracles or achieved other kind of criteria alongside that. Where were we going? I just lost my train of thought there. What were you just saying?
Speaker 3:I'm not sure where you were going. Actually, I think it's maybe just the literalness of oh. The Catholic community does not guarantee or know who's going to heaven or not. Their ability is we're going to interpret the scripture to the best of our abilities. What Jesus expects of us anticipates us. We are going to be as true to that as we possibly can because we believe that gives us the best chance to get to heaven and be with him for eternity. Now, no one in their right mind should be. If they're looking at Christians of other denominations. I don't think any good practicing, well-formed Catholic would say you're not going to heaven or you're not going to heaven. That would be taboo from a Catholic perspective. But we would go as far to say these are the things that we feel do move us in that direction of being more likely to spend heaven.
Speaker 1:Now that I like the way you articulated it, but earlier you said well, if your guys' going to heaven or hell is on the line because you don't believe this and you don't take the Eucharist, and if you don't take the Eucharist, then you're not going to heaven or hell. That's a very literal interpretation of we believe that this is going to help us get there, versus in the absence of this, you guys are SOL.
Speaker 3:No, I think that's what. When you had said. What prompted that comment was hey, what's it matter? Why do you need to push it on me? And I said I don't need to push it on you and it doesn't matter, as long as the Bible was not intended to be taken literally.
Speaker 1:So if, at the end of the day, all that matters is, but even if it was literally, you're saying, even if it was literal, whether I believe that exact story or not, interpret the way it is and participate in that. That is, I guess I'm trying to either get into heaven or not, even if that's literal, I have to do that to get into heaven Is that what you're saying.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying I can't ever make the determination. I think what I could go as far to say is the Catholic Church believes that the Eucharist is a component of giving yourself a greater likelihood of getting to heaven. And so for someone that's not doing that if I knew I couldn't guarantee right, but I knew that was going to push you guys in the right direction if you were taking the Eucharist on a weekly basis and it was the difference potentially could be the difference right Of you spending heaven or you know, because I think what's interesting about some of this is, you know, taking the Eucharist on a weekly basis, like what compound and what triggers and what other behavioral changes might that prompt and things in your life? I think there's maybe more to this, but if that were the case, that would be the reason why I would quote push it on you for sake of being the good friend and maybe telling you something you don't want to hear, even though I think it might ultimately benefit you.
Speaker 2:I think, at the end of the day, for me, again, going back to my kind of perspective on this, it all has to be metaphorical and I'm just. This is again. You know it's just it's a fun juxtaposition.
Speaker 2:The reason I say that is because I think the stories need to evolve and I think there are certain beliefs and certain things that are, that are instilled in cultures and are acceptable at particular times, that if you perceive something literally would be again kind of a tenet of the faith, like one of the things that's interesting with Catholicism and the exposure and maybe Christianity in general.
Speaker 2:Right, we were talking the other day about drugs and different levels of substances and alcohol, ranking near cocaine in terms of the way that it affects the body, in terms of damaging the body over a longer period of time and how bad it can be. In my experience when we were Catholics, drinking is a major part of that community. And then, of course, there is the element of the Eucharist with the wine itself and again, that's nuanced and maybe a little bit over the top. But if everything is so literal in the component because a lot of the Bible is celebrating in that manner if it is literal and not figurative and it's not really about the underlying meaning of the story, then I think over time some of those traditions or some of those things that are baked into the literalness of the Bible become less digestible by future civilizations, future cultures and therefore again, stops the spread of it all. So that's kind of my close.
Speaker 3:Don't you think it's fascinating, though, that the Bible hasn't changed at all and it has lasted through an incredible number?
Speaker 2:of civilizations, but if it's metaphorical, it doesn't need to change.
Speaker 3:Well, but you said the stories need to evolve.
Speaker 2:No, I said—.
Speaker 3:Maybe just clarify that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's my bad. No, my point is that if it is looked upon as being metaphorical or allegoric, that you can perceive it however you want relative to the time you live in. Now, again, I think you're right. In a sense, I do agree with you. There's a fine line there. Right, because and it goes back to a lot of the premise of everything we've discussed in all of our podcasts is the second that you start to just say oh, I want to live this way, this way, this way, this way, this way and this way.
Speaker 3:Let's call it this denomination.
Speaker 2:Let's call it. I think that where I take solace is that it is in our collective moral wiring. We've made the comment in prior podcasts about everybody probably wants this at the end of the day, and it's these generic, high level assumptions that categorize and stereotype people without having a full conversation with them to understand. And I think that this is very similar. We're all kind of morally wired the same way and so for the most part, we're going to perceive these lessons as it relates to that physiological wiring or mental wiring, and then the things that are anecdotal to that time period kind of don't matter as much anymore and can age in whatever way they see fit.
Speaker 1:I'd like to shift just a little bit and we've kind of talked about Christianity as a whole and differences and some of those nuances that exist just within our three families. Right, and I would say, for you and your family there's probably differences and, again, we've tried to be open and have good dialogue and debate, even though we clearly believe things that are slightly different. But Christianity as a whole, or having faith and believing in something, maybe we could each touch on that a little bit individually, like how that has impacted your psyche or how that plays into your day-to-day, because I believe mental, physical, spiritual there's three layers in us and maybe you think it's different and I'd love that if you do. But if you have spiritual, mental and physical, talk about the spiritual component in your life and how important it is, regardless of what denomination you are, regardless of what you believe, how has spirituality impacted your life and your beliefs?
Speaker 3:I'll just say for me it's given me a considerable amount of purpose, is the big thing Honoring God with the gifts and talents I've been given and trying to deploy those and have as much impact as possible with those. And I think that perspective has allowed me to get much more out of myself than I would normally if I am kind of more solving for my own outcomes. And so I would just pull back just a second to say that I also, when I was in that 15-year gap, I got to a point where, like, I was even exploring the existence of God. Right, it was like, okay, this is a very convenient story. Every religion you know, for the, you know it was the Greek gods, it was that, and then these. It's like there's been all these different versions of this and how is our God? You know, because I even in my time at Liberty Mutual, in my prior career, I worked with a lot of people overseas in India who have completely different faith practices and you know, knowing them as human beings and people and having that exposure kind of challenged me a little bit to this was interesting about it as I started to dig into this and I don't know that I necessarily went through all that.
Speaker 3:But I think sometimes, tj you mentioned, things aren't well thought out. It's like I'm just not going to believe that there's this, like you know, creator or whatever, this magic person out there that's moving all the pieces around. It's like when you start to think about the alternatives of like this coming from nothing and of nothing of nothing, and then like something just came of something from nothing is just like. To me it starts to get a lot more interesting when you weigh the alternatives right. And I think that's even similarly biblically. And that's where I started to shift. As I was watching these debates between agnostics or atheists and archbishops, that's where I started to shift.
Speaker 3:It was like hold on a second. Yeah, this might be unlikely. You could say this is unlikely. Hell, yeah, it's unlikely that someone raised from the dead and it's unlikely. But how does it compare to this? Is this any more likely? No, not at all, far less likely. And so for me that's where even the existence of a God shifted. And then, of course, over the time of really digging in and researching things that led me to where I am. But I would say, to go back to your question, for me it has taken some pressure off as well. It has allowed me to instill humility and, exemplifying certain characteristics and traits that Jesus did. I think it's allowed me to grow in some of those ways vulnerability that have allowed me to again better deploy those gifts and talents, taking the pressure off that I don't feel like it's all got to be me and I've got to do this. It's like I have support and psychologically there's some freedom in that, so I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 2:I mean very similar. It's helped me to establish a true north and my kids are especially Kay because of body and training is exposed to a lot of scripture and I think it just reinforces the set of rules and morality through examples in Christ that help us live our best lives and end up where we want to be.
Speaker 1:I would say for me, um, I got a point. I got to a point in my life where I couldn't cope or handle the pressures that I was I was being given and, um, as a young business owner at age 34, I think you have the opportunity to turn to a vice, right? You can drinking infidelity you can, I mean, you can get into a lot of different things, and I was lucky to have God put some really good people in my life and that, you know, led me to Christ, you know, as kind of the focal point. And so the other thing is, during that same period of time, I focused from an inward life to an outward life, where I was spending a lot of time focusing on myself, what I wanted, what I needed, what I wanted to achieve, and it allowed me to start focusing on others. And I think you talked about purpose. There's a lot there that we can.
Speaker 1:When you believe in a higher being, higher being, it does take pressure off, um, you know believing in god and and jesus, um, and everyone was created and and we're trying to live a life to help other people. It's just, it is a freeing thing. And and going back to, you know praying on offense. Going to god for other people has been an incredible transformation for me personally because, again, when you want the best for everybody and you're willing to go to war for other people, it's transformational. And I've found that when I'm not focusing on myself, I'm much happier.
Speaker 1:It's hard like when I'm thinking about other people. It's really hard to be like, oh, get down on myself. Or oh, I don't have this, and it's just like, oh, if I'm just trying to focus on other people, this, this actually works a lot better. So it's been a huge component in my life as a leader and it continues to be a huge influence in my life. I'd like to close on one thing. I'm going to do this kind of spontaneously, but I think this would be a great episode too, so I'm going to let Todd talk about this and you'll get a close up. But he developed a cross. It's called Eternize Cross or Crucifix. Why don't you tell everybody kind of the premise behind it and where they can get it?
Speaker 3:yeah, so this was just as part of my faith journey I mentioned I had stepped away for 15 plus years and as I was getting back into the faith journey, I really struggled to do so in today's society, because you want to stay spiritually mindful and it's really hard to do in today's society. There are so many distractions and you're pulled in so many different directions that I found myself you know I would go to church on Sunday or even, as I grew in my faith, I would have these other events either every so often, immersive type events or other things that maybe go to adoration, the gap in between and really like stay spiritually mindful and embed my spiritual mindset into everything I was doing day to day. I just really really struggled with that, and so over the course of the last seven years now this has gone from idea yeah, seven, almost seven years since I first mentioned the idea to a friend and the amount of people that God has put I truly believe, a lot of the ideas that have come from this just they and the people God has put in the way of this journey to keep me on this path. I mean, you think about seven years, like sticking with something that has not hit the market, been on shelves, anything. There's no revenue, there's no nothing. The.
Speaker 3:The ability to stick with this is well beyond my own personal capabilities, but, uh, really, what this does is it is, uh, it has haptic feedback. It vibrates throughout the day to whatever schedule or pattern or intensity that you deem to be most appropriate for yourself. It vibrates to just pull you back in mentally to feel that strength. Could be a frustrating moment at work where you're ready to lose yourself and you get that notification to pull it back in, find a way to channel that energy productively, find a way to get on the other side of that situation without doing reputational damage, or you've got a kid or kids at home and you're just ready to completely freak out. You could feel his strength and his patience come through you in this.
Speaker 3:So, the different times that this has hit me, I've been wearing a prototype and we've had 15 to 20 others that have been heavily testing this out to really refine this experience and distill it down to where we have it now. It is the amount of feedback that we've gotten ways. This has helped people within the moments and win these critical moments that we're faced with each day. And then more broadly, just kind of integrating that spiritual mindset into their secular lives has been super powerful, and myeternizecom is the website. We're going to be launching a Kickstarter campaign here soon to kick things off. That will probably be the best place to get them most discounted, so when we have that available, we can post that in the notes or more information about it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I just want to share one story of an experience I had with the cross about staying present. To share one story of an experience I had with the cross about staying present. I was at a place where I was asked to speak on praying on offense. I was there with another friend and we were speaking to this group of leaders and I have my cross set to the Holy Spirit mode, which I love because it vibrates randomly throughout the day. I have no idea. So like, if it's at eight o'clock, I get used to it at 8 o'clock, so this goes off whenever. It's probably some algorithm that programs it, no clue.
Speaker 1:So we get to the end of this presentation and me and my buddy are sitting there and the guy says I'm going to ask one of you guys to pray. I'm going to ask one of you to commit one more fearless act of humility. I'd like you to pray for this entire group. And immediately, as he said that, I was like thinking, okay, I'm going to talk first. I'm going to be like, hey, my buddy's going to pray, because I don't feel comfortable praying in front of a bunch of people, and so I already got this kind of in my mind that he's going to pray and then, as he's talking, it's like God was saying no, this is your time, this is your prayer.
Speaker 1:And it went off right. I mean the fact I don't know how many seconds there are on a day, but it went off in a five second window that it could only go off, and I took that opportunity. And so, when the moment I was, I'm like you know what God's telling me, this is my opportunity, I'm going to jump in and I'm going to take this prayer here. So, there, I think there is even some divine intervention in things like this. So, eternize, unbelievable product and, looking forward to that, helping a lot of people win their moments. You guys got anything else for a wrap?
Speaker 2:Way to go.
Speaker 1:This has been fun, a lot of good debates. Again you kind of can see the flavor that we all have a little bit of differences, believing in something. We've all kind of gone away from Christianity and back into our faith and it's become a critical component of our life. We all look at it just a little bit differently but at the end of the day we're trying to focus on other people and do things outwardly, trying to help people. So hope you guys found some gold and we look forward to seeing you next time.