The Dailey Edge Podcast
Join hosts Trent, TJ, and Todd Dailey as they explore the intersections of technology, culture, fitness, and personal growth. Through engaging discussions and personal anecdotes, the trio dives into topics ranging from childhood gaming nostalgia and cutting-edge fitness tech to the pursuit of happiness and lifestyle choices. Whether reminiscing about epic gaming marathons, sharing tips for staying on the forefront of fitness trends, or unraveling the complexities of modern life, The Dailey Edge delivers thoughtful insights, lively debates, and relatable stories for listeners of all walks of life.
The Dailey Edge Podcast
Episode 8: The Echo Chamber Effect: Navigating Polarization
Today's conversation revolves around the theme of echo chambers and their impact on societal polarization. We explore how social media algorithms shape what we see and amplify confirmation bias, making it harder to engage with differing viewpoints. There’s a call to seek understanding and empathy in discussions to bridge divides created by beliefs. We emphasize the importance of personal experiences and the role of environment in shaping our perspectives.
• Exploring the meaning of echo chambers
• Understanding social media's role in polarization
• Discussing confirmation bias and its implications
• The impact of social media on familial relationships
• The importance of seeking understanding in dialogues
• Personal experiences that highlight commonalities across divides
• The role of community and mentorship in shaping beliefs
Welcome to the Daily Edge where we bring you the latest insights, opinions and thought-provoking conversations to give you that competitive edge in life, business and beyond. Let's go, episode 8 of the Daily Edge. I'm here with my brothers, tj Daly, todd Daly, and today's going to be an interesting topic. We're going to talk a little bit about echo chambers and I think in society today, with social media and algorithms and feeding you stuff that you want to hear, it's gotten even worse and probably made different sides of the aisle and politics more polarizing, but just life more polarizing in general. So, todd, I'm going to kick it over to you and why don't you get us started?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say over probably the past decade, this has probably been one of the most frustrating things. As you guys know, and others listening may know, I'm pretty cognitively oriented and I'm thinking about things all the time and for me, as I unpack things and try and look at things from different people's perspective, I find it to be everything from religion to politics to just general perspectives on things to be very, very complex because it's all based on our lens, what our aim is, where we're coming from. There's so many different upsides and downsides and pros and cons when you lift under the covers. But what's been so frustrating for me is so many people perceive it to be so simple and obvious, and it's like everyone on the right is like this is so obviously the correct answer. I can't believe the Democrats don't get it. Like how stupid can you be? And the Democrats, similarly, are like I cannot believe you guys would vote for Trump. I mean, this guy is like the worst human being possible. Like how could 70 million people do this? Like this is unbelievable. Like you see these, these posts and and the same thing on religion. It's like, whether it's within Christianity or across these different religions, like clearly this is so obviously the right thing. How could you not be doing this? And I've just like, I feel like society and you mentioned the algorithms has perpetuated this, because we're continuing to get fed the stuff that we all confirmation bias right, it's this concept that we're not already going to naturally latch on to something more that we already believe and that reinforces our belief?
Speaker 2:But now that's all we're getting fed from our Facebook circles, right? A lot of us, you. But now that's all we're getting fed from our Facebook circles, right, a lot of us. You find somebody that's posting this crazy stuff out there on Facebook. What do you do? You unfollow them, right? It's like I just can't take this anymore, so let me just narrow this. So, some of it's even us, right, it's not even the algorithm. But we're surrounding ourselves and then we show up at Thanksgiving or Christmas and you've got these people on on that are so far been polarized to like the ends of the earth on all these topics and you have these explosions. And it's just been. I'd be interested in your guys' thoughts, but it's been infinitely frustrating for me to think through these things and seemingly grasp what I seem to be the complexity of it, but so many people think it's so simple.
Speaker 1:You know the Super Bowl commercial with Tom Brady and Snoop Dogg and they said I hate you because I hate you, because I think the sad part about all this and we'll get into the dynamics of it is just it has created so much hate.
Speaker 3:Do you know that was the most hated Superbowl commercial. I saw that this morning.
Speaker 1:Really yeah, and I mean, but I think it's there is. There is so much hate amongst people and it is. It's so polarizing and I know I've heard it's it's people, people's family members don't talk, like somebody will now not talk to brother, sister, mother, father because of a political belief or religious belief. And I think to your point, people are so convinced that their perspective and what they've internalized is correct that they're not willing to listen to another point of view. And so one of the challenges is, if you want to seek a different point of view, you gotta go find it right. Like, help me understand why this person is thinking this way. That's something that I don't believe we do a lot of. But just, I wanted to clarify one thing.
Speaker 1:In echo chamber for those of you that don't know, is it's a term where we get fed content that you know. So, like, let's say, I'm a Republican and I'm liking Republican things and now all of a sudden, uh, that's all I'm getting sent. I'm getting sent of the things that that I have liked or that I stop in my scroll on. So now I get more of that stuff and it makes it just reinforces that even more and, before you know it. Everything in my feed is telling me exactly what I want it to tell me exactly what I believe, and now that's creating a certainty in my life. To where I'm so certain about it I'm willing to go put that on Facebook or blast somebody for it that doesn't see it that way.
Speaker 2:And you're watching Fox News and just to give the entities a little bit of a break here, they're doing it because of what we're clicking on right Like. Fox News is feeding conservative content because that's what gets people fired up and they love it and they want to watch more. So they're doing it just because there's a monetary value at the end of it. But it's a horrible downward spiral.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think there's a couple things, a couple ways we can go. I think number one a lot of this is the result of assumptions and I think it goes back to the simplicity commentary there, right, Because you hear a lot of these conversations. So you know, when we were younger, we used to get into especially Todd and I a lot of political arguments on social media. One of my best friends sits on a particular side of the aisle, Todd sits on the opposite and I remember a Twitter argument in probably 2014 that resulted in a real rift. Said person followed Todd and I and it was a real big deal. So we used to really kind of engage in that a lot and, over the years, less and less and less and less, because there's no desire to be right anymore necessarily in those regards, because it is somewhere in the middle. It is somewhat nuanced, but recently I did have a conversation with somebody that responded kind of aggressively to something that I put out there, and the culmination of that conversation back and forth, which was civil, was that we had the exact same perspectives, and you hear that so often.
Speaker 3:When you're talking about politics or whatever is that you hear people make the comment that I think most people would, or the common person would, example a particular person chooses a particular type of lifestyle, whatever that is. I think collectively most people cool, like, do whatever you want to do, it doesn't necessarily affect me If it is impeding my family in a very particular manner that is causing some type of harm or something like that. We'll have a discussion about it. But where the assumption comes into is people assume that because you are of a particular, you follow particular people on social media and they're like oh, look who he follows. He's got to believe that somebody who chooses this lifestyle is less than or is whatever. And I think people assign people stereotypes without ever diving into it. Diving into it and it's crazy.
Speaker 3:Because now this is what's so scary is that what used to require community engagement for the last 40,000 years doesn't anymore.
Speaker 3:You don't have to talk to somebody to get reinforcement or disagreement with your behaviors. You can get your behaviors reinforced by going on YouTube and watching 10 hours of somebody who is not old, like because it's cathartic to for whatever reason, and we can talk about psychological things or physiological wiring, but it's cathartic at times to like, feel like you're right and to get it out there in the most aggressive manner. But we placate that now with people who and that's why you know, we've got a friend who's got a you know six figure, six figures of followers on one of these platforms and I've talked to the guy in person very calm, very chill, but on social media super polarizing, says stuff that he knows is going to get people riled up, but I think that's crazy. You don't have to have conversations anymore to build your confidence or reinforce your confidence and I'd kind of like to hear you guys talk a little bit about your perspectives on how that's affected things and maybe how you've seen that play out.
Speaker 1:I would say one of the things is not having these face-to-face interactions is it's so much easier to post hateful, polarizing things on social media, like some of the things that are said and put out there I don't believe would be said in person. And so we've created this area to where someone sees a post or shares or just decides to forward something or see something, and they have continued to. I think it's made it easier, for it's easier to send something in a text message than make a phone call, right, and so when you these environments that have been created I think ultimately for good and for community and a lot of good can come from social media environments it's created a place to where you can kind of say stuff and hide behind it, and I don't think those things would be, as I don't think a lot of those things would be said in person and I don't think they would be reinforced in the manner that you're discussing.
Speaker 3:Do you? I mean, I want to jump in real quick and pose this question again Do you guys think that there are? I'm seeing this and again this sounds somewhat self-serving Do you think there are certain segments of the population that are less equipped to deal with this? Like meaning our parents? They didn't grow up like we did, right, we've had internet and computers. I think you know we got internet here when I was 13 and so they didn't have that. And then our children they didn't have the forced interaction that our parents did.
Speaker 3:So when you see a lot of this like radical, like people screaming at each other on facebook, a lot of times it's an older generation that hasn't dealt with that type of communication. And then this younger side, you know you see them gravitate towards like I mean, you know how many and I'm sorry for going on this a little bit of tangent, but you know how many times have we questioned over the last decade why do our kids watch unboxing videos? It's so strange, like they're watching somebody open something, but then you do it and then you're like, oh, I want to see this person's excitement, and so they're getting it here Again. Both sides are missing this key element to developing this perspective.
Speaker 2:Again, I'm not trying to say we're better than anybody else. I just also want to throw that out there while I'm thinking about it. For me, I find that people drastically underestimate how much a shared set of facts can be distorted for influential purposes. I remember we have a Wednesday morning meeting at IMG. One time uh, we have that Wednesday morning and one time I remember sharing two different versions of the same story of my time so far at IMG and I and I started.
Speaker 2:This first story is like this was such a horrible career move for me. You know I was working, you know, 35 to 40 hours a week at a corporate job. It was good and like I was dealing with. The types of problems I was dealing with were technical problems and you know it was just. And then I switched to insurance management group. I was driving back and forth an hour a day. My workday was getting longer, I was dealing with arguably more petty things, having more administrative oversight of more people, and just how it impacted the quality of my and I just portrayed this negative image. And then I took that same set of shared facts and was talking about how this was the greatest move of my life because that drive time forced me to have basically an hour each way of downtime and how I used that to listen to audiobooks and do personal growth that I never would have done. And here I had all this experience in this depth of a Fortune 100 company and I got to supplement that with all of this breadth of different type of experience and I went on to kind of explain how this has been one of the best moves in my life.
Speaker 2:And I think people underestimate your ability to do that. Not only and I've done that several times with a given day right, I could take a given day and I could tell you why this is the worst day ever and why it's the best day ever. But I think people find themselves falling into the trap of people do that with certain topics and positions and angles. Right, why, the conservative position is obviously the best position and I can't believe anyone would ever possibly be liberal or Democrat or whatever. And then the same thing on the other side and the really good debaters on both sides. You can watch them and you find yourself agreeing with them.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the challenge is, people underestimate someone's ability to take a shared set of facts, leave out certain truths, to create a very compelling position to where, when you hear them, you think naturally your natural instinct is there can't even be another side to this story Like this is so obviously correct. And then if you open your mind to it and you actually hear the other side of the story, it's like Ooh, okay, like, and that's where I feel like we've the art of the debate has been lost. And that's, to me, is what's so frustrating about this is you can't people come in, so far apart you can't have a discussion. I remember there was times where I was going through my faith formation where I watched debates between archbishops and atheists or agnostics and that was so helpful for me to like see both sides right there.
Speaker 2:And even presidential debates, unfortunately, have completely lost like their ability. Debates unfortunately have completely lost like their ability to, because people have gotten so masterful at distorting facts and you know you don't really or leaving out truths or certain things, the fact checking. It's just gotten crazy. But I've just I've really struggled with that and I think that's a really important part of this is because we've gotten so far apart, we can't have these discussions. I want to talk about two.
Speaker 1:I think there's the fact side of it, and then I think there's a bias to positivity and negativity. From your guys' experience, we have the people in our lives that everything's negative and no matter what, and then you have the people that everything's positive. What do you think is at the bottom of the formation of that Like?
Speaker 3:yeah, no, I want to impact that, unpack that, because I've been thinking about that a lot lately, like why is there? I'll give you a particular example. You said in a prior podcast you were talking about impact and that's like your focus and that that aim is typically aligned with. I'm going to do what I can to make the world a better place. I'm going to influence those people around me to make the world a better place. Versus the other perspective and they're multiple, right, but another one is this is so unfair and I don't mean to say that with a negative tone and everything is unfair and instead of focusing on myself and what I can do and what I can contribute and how I can help those around me in my sphere of influence contribute better, my focus is how can I try to lift up maybe those outside of my influence, maybe be more philanthropic or you know these people are and I was very interested. You know I have some. I definitely have both sides on social media, just so everyone knows.
Speaker 3:I spent a decade of my life living in one of the most liberal cities, if not the most liberal city in the country, in Seattle, and then I've spent the rest of my 30 plus years in Indiana, which was purple at one point I think I voted for Obama, but for the most part it's pretty red. So my social media, especially because I was exposed to way more people when I was in Seattle, is pretty half and half. And I had somebody I followed that made a comment. It was really interesting because it made the assumption that the people that she was talking about supporting it made the. It made the assumption that they wanted it.
Speaker 3:It was like and so I was trying to understand what life experiences led you to believe that these people I we're pretty good with our language on this podcast but want you to blow smoke up their ass. You know I'm going to patronize so and so. Yeah, I'm going to patronize so and so and so and so because they're good at it. Right, you know I'm going to work with this person because I like the product, not because of whatever, whatever you know, whatever lifestyle they choose or whatever they you know. And so I'm wondering, like having been fortunate enough to grow up in a place like Marion where we get to experience all of it, like, what kind of again, I'm not trying to say this with negative connotation, but what lifestyle leads you to believe or maybe it's when you grew up. It's just such a complex thing but what leads you to believe that that particular group of people want your patronage, based solely on what they are? I just would pose that question what do you guys think? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know either. I think a lot of people, what they are, is a product of the environment that they grew up in and the experiences that they like. What do you guys think I don't know? Yeah, I mean, I don't know either. I mean I think a lot of people, what they are, is a product of the environment that they grew up in and the experiences that they've had which gets into a whole other podcast of are you self-made or are you a product of your experiences and things God's done in your life? But I think that's naturally.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people who have that disposition probably grew up in a home that had a disposition like that and it was again, no right or wrong necessarily. I mean, certainly we've all chosen what's right or wrong for us. Now I think that gets a little trickier when you get into religion. We can we can tackle that another day, but yeah, I mean, I think that's the most for me, the most reasonable explanation. It's just a comment. You know people are a product of the environment that they grew up in.
Speaker 1:It would be interesting to think or to see if somebody could change right no-transcript and it seems to be consistent and I think it also will probably add to the fact, regardless of side of the aisle that you're on, how polarizing. Your statements are right and so I think when you can lead into any conversation with openness and positivity, it leads to opportunities to have your mind changed. One of the greatest things I love about Joe Rogan's podcast he's like you have to be willing to admit when you're wrong, like if I got on here and I said something, and I made a comment or a fact or a statement and it wasn't right, I gotta be able to eat that instead of going down the rabbit hole. He did that.
Speaker 1:Wesley Huff did that uh podcast um with the other yeah, yeah, billy Carson, and he said honestly he he should have come out and just said, hey, you know, I I misspoke on this, this and this and instead tried to keep going down the rabbit hole because he was worried about image or because he was an expert in this field and kind of got caught. And so I know I think at times there've been times in my life where I didn't want to be wrong. I'm very cautious about making any like concrete statements, partly because I have a brother named Todd Daly who will make sure to let you know if you say something that you shouldn't. But you know, our dad's an example of someone who probably on the other end will you know, I think there was a.
Speaker 1:There was a decade in time and probably when social media I would say maybe it's five to 10 years ago when there was a lot more just sharing posts. I don't think people do that as much now because I think kids are calling out their parents, but it was like gosh if I saw this on the daily Catholic devotional, I'm sharing it or whatever, and sometimes it would be pretty polarizing. So we don't see that as much, but I still think it does exist and I do think people believe everything they see. I think that's another thing. It's like well, my iPad said it was true, so it's true.
Speaker 2:Copy and paste this into your Facebook status to never get cancer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you educate individuals or talk about that in general, because there is so much misinformation out there.
Speaker 3:You know it's really tough because you said it, you have to go search for it, um, and you know, maybe, maybe you can look at the general wave of things and which way things are shifting. So I noticed something somebody posted the other day. Uh, you know, one thing that I've noticed and again, this is potentially because of my algorithm, but there seems to be a shift from people in, let's call it, new media, but we're all in traditional media at some point You're Rogans of the world, you're Russell Brands of the world they're shifting perspectives on things pretty significantly. Still, you know and I think a lot of people share this approach to let we'll call it politics is they're a little more socially liberal because we have more. You know, growing up in marion, prior to the internet, we didn't know anybody, or very few people, that would have, um, chosen particular lifestyles. We weren't exposed to that, and so it was potentially taboo just based on lack of exposure. Now I think, the more that we're all exposed to things and we see what's harmful and what's not harmful, that we have a little more understanding of that and so maybe a little more socially liberal and fiscally conservative or whatever.
Speaker 3:But you're seeing this kind of trend shift, and so this particular person shared something, and it was a vlog from a creator with over 3 million followers talking about the illegality of some of the things that are happening via executive orders, and it was obviously conveyed in a way that was meant to appeal to the left side of the aisle, talking about how this is illegal, this can't be done, yada, yada, yada, it's a violation of the Constitution. Then, later in the day and again, you're right. You have to be somewhat being conscious of it. I saw a pretty reasonable what I thought was a real clip and I still think it is, if I'm wrong, I'll admit it of Jon Stewart, who is typically staunchly on the left side of things. He doesn't waver.
Speaker 3:There's a couple guys that don't waver. He's one of them Talking about how we as a people, collectively and even addressing his base, have given the executive branch the power that it has over time and have created this vacuum within which the Republican side has secured the judiciary, the Congress and the executive branch. He was speaking to his, so it was interesting to me that on one side, you have somebody saying that it's all it's, it's illegal and how can they do this? And and on the other side you have somebody who has always been, you know, as critical of this. You know the right as possible actually being like no, this is our fault.
Speaker 3:And so seeing the shift in that manner, you know is, may lead you to believe that people are starting to self-educate. With sites like Ground News, you guys have heard of coming out which is kind of supposed to be this. You know, and I've used it a little bit, I don't know how much you guys have, but it's, you know, underneath each article it has a white, red and blue uh slider and it shows you kind of which way the particular article is leaning.
Speaker 1:Really. Yeah, it's great. It's called ground news, um, but it's really, it's really really hard.
Speaker 3:You know, one of the things we're dealing with right now I'd love your opinion on is, you know, um, and and this, and in this I won't go down this path, but it reminds me of so yesterday, um, my kids had taken a video game console of mine and played it and it was not working correctly. After they played it and they're like well, dad, we didn't do anything. And like, well, you lack plausible deniability because you touched it. If you'd have never touched it, then I couldn't accuse you of anything. And I think we're seeing this with this whole USAID situation, right, like.
Speaker 3:I read the New York Times assessment of what's being stated about these USAID expenditures and every single one was exaggerated, misleading, right. But you would make the assumption, based on the vilification of the standard media from the right side, that it's not, that it's biased, and so it's like well, here's the thing. At the end of the day and this is more of a statement than a question if you had never done any of it, then the people that are looking for those problems couldn't identify them and point the figure. But I guess, back to your point about education. I would recommend something like a Ground News. I would recommend one of my friends. What he'll do is he'll sign out of social media and search specific things without your account, so that you're definitely getting different perspectives.
Speaker 1:How do you know? I listened or read something somewhere like chat GPT, for example, if it is like 0.001% off, like the trajectory of data, of how misleading that could be, so like even things that are trying not to like, how do you know? How do you guys?
Speaker 2:I don't think you can. You just got to remain an open mind. I think that's what's so difficult about this is you have it's had how people approach it and what their mindset is. It's like a seek to understand that's a value at img. And just to specify, img insurance management group, that's a independent insurance agency in the north central indiana area that um trent and I um both work at and seek to understand is a value there.
Speaker 2:Uh, for that reason, because it's challenging people to change their orientation right when you see something, instead of immediately seeing it, getting fired up about it and going on a rampage to spread it, seek to understand the other side of the story.
Speaker 2:I had someone come in my office the other day and just lay into me about a situation that they were very tangentially involved in, had had some interactions with one person on one side of the scenario and we had a two-hour I'll say politely throwdown.
Speaker 2:It was a very enjoyable interaction that ended very well, but we were challenging each other on what the actual truth of the situation was and I just continue to never be surprised at different just as humans not me or anyone else in particular humans' ability to take what they hear about a situation and formulate a storyline or have it fulfill the lens that they're looking through. It is incredible how far apart people can be, and I think until, as a society, we either have the platforms that do this for us or which is probably going to be more likely, the solution than just everyone beginning to seek to understand and not following their human instincts to take something and run with it, I think it's a real challenge. I would say, in my estimation, this is as much as an epidemic as we've had in the last. I mean, even compared to COVID or anything else. We are just really struggling to communicate.
Speaker 3:I think there's two big things there. One that's really important is recognizing what's entertainment. If you can separate that out and realize, yes, I'm watching this because it feels good, but I know that this isn't right. Or I mean there's things you can do, like I know a lot of people do this and I'll do this at times I'll search for the opposite, like I'll try to. But one of the other things and this is crazy is that stay humble.
Speaker 3:Yes, what do you learn early in life in sports, when you're that kid or when you're that fan that's in everybody's grill about? I mean, like none of us smack talk anymore, like very rarely. You know fantasy sports. I mean you just because you know what the result is when you get in somebody's face about something that has any potential or any probability to not come true. You know, and I think that's the thing when you approach somebody with an opinion that's so strong, stay humble, because there is a chance that you're wrong. Regardless, and this opens up an even bigger can of worms, because for the first time ever, we're starting to see things that were steadfast, right, with a foundation of our existence questioned and it may still be close to as fact as possible. But now there's that little bit, like you talked about Rogan, did you ever watch the guy get on there and talk about the moon landing? Never in our lives did you think that there was even a 0.1% chance that the moon landing didn't happen. But I'll tell you what if you were 13 years old and you hadn't studied that in school, or you didn't grow up when we did, and you listened to that guy, you would 100% believe that the moon landing never happened. Right?
Speaker 3:Same thing with some of these other perspectives is that now we're finally, you know, again back to being humble, right? Like, if you're not like even again, do I believe that? Right? Like, if you're not like even again, do I believe that the earth is flat? No, but there is a .0001% chance, like people have posited some like concepts. Same thing with creationism, right? People, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day who has a friend who believes that God put dinosaur bones in the earth. There weren't ever dinosaurs, because that you know. But again, like you would never have thought like what you're going to. You're on unraveling every scientific discipline out, but again, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 2:And you can, I think, interpret that one of two ways.
Speaker 2:One is yes, and I would agree with you 1000% never, always be humble and always be open to a piece of information that you don't have, don't the second you get so sure that there is no other.
Speaker 2:Like is the second, you put yourself in a really bad position, or it ain't? I just say, and you can also look at that in that, again, it's another exemplification of how someone could take something that is what most people believe is very common knowledge and accepted, and find a way to put together some pieces and some data and a picture that creates doubt and or, you know, prove something that is seemingly preposterous from an understanding perspective. I mean, there's some people that will say that the holocaust didn't happen right and it and it's like I think most people would accept, that it absolutely did and that I think. But there are people that, again, I think people underestimate other people's ability to create a convincing position. You think, if you hear a convincing position, that it's oh well. You know it's a lot easier than people think to create a convincing position on a particular topic.
Speaker 1:You said seek to understand, which I love, but that's a mindset right, getting yourself in the right mindset. Do you believe that there is an ability to ever change? Because I think the last leg of that is we kind of want to fulfill what we're searching for right. Like we all have this human intuition of like I really like to end up here. Give me the data to get me from here to here. So, as I think about being seek to understand, there's been times in my life where I will seek to understand the situation and I'll, but at the end it's like I've kind of already got the golden nugget figured out, like tell me the story to get there and then I want to debunk the other story. Do you believe that'll ever change, or is that just part of how we're wired innately?
Speaker 3:I think it comes through failure. I think when you have. I was listening to Russell Brand the other day, and Russell Brand most of you are maybe familiar with him. He was an actor and at one point in his life was about as I mean I think he'd say it as evil as it comes right. Like I remember, a couple days after 9-11, he showed up to an MTV set dressed as Osama bin Laden, like just high as a kite and they recently asked him what and he was an atheist, and I mean all the things.
Speaker 3:He had access to everything in Hollywood, tons of money. And the question was it was actually with Wesley Huff on Apologetics Canada's page but asked him why, why did you? And his comment was I tried everything else. I saw that, being famous, having all the money, doing all the drugs, being adored by fans, having access to women, all of these things it didn't. I failed every single time and I finally figured out that, oh wait, there is this set of stories, right, there's this faith based on these set of stories in this book that provide a pretty damn good path forward.
Speaker 3:And so I think, with all of this stuff, it comes through failure. It comes through losing and being wrong and being like okay, because bigger than reinforcement of a belief is fear. And if you are afraid that you're gonna look like an idiot because you've gotten into so many of those conversations, I think that comes. I used to be, I was as headstrong and you are the same way as headstrong as they come.
Speaker 3:Everything was very matter of fact and I was overzealous about it all, and I'm 100% right, you know and the more you fail we were at Christmas and your son was talking about the college football playoff and who was in the college football playoff? He's 10. I know better than he does and I was like you're wrong, noah, noah's right. And that's one more piece of information in my brain that when I hear somebody make a statement about whatever it is, I go back and I'm like I better look at the other side or I better research that because I've been proven wrong by a 10-year-old in the last month, I better make sure that. So I think it happens through failure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's really hard to change your mindset, and that's what I was saying earlier. I think, more likely, the changes is platforms and or some entity that's going to do something other than other than maximize their revenue, which is what everyone's doing. That's resulting in them producing content. That's going to get the most clicks and it's going to get the most activity, something like a ground news or some other transparency, I think it's. It's going to have to be a collection of things, because it's really hard and I think, certainly through experiences, and it gets harder because you said, failure, a lot of people. They don't have to have those face-to-face interactions where they fail anymore, and so there's a lot more safe spaces for people to stay in these chambers and just continue to get more and more fired up about it. But I'll give you an example where you know for me, I think, just putting yourself in positions where you can see two sides of the story, like I've followed obviously a lot of the hot topic right now is a lot of the immigration stuff and half the country is like, oh my gosh. You know it's about damn time you know all these resources that could be going to our own citizens or going to these other citizens. Then you have the other half of the country. That's like my goodness, like these are actual human beings, just because they're not United States citizens, like gosh, like you're, these are actual human beings that you're, you know, shipping back to wherever and who knows what's going to happen, and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And I mean again, it's complex, right? So you could make the argument that, well, we're a country, if we're a country, we're a country and we're going to have borders and this is going to be the thing and that's a logical argument, right. The same point it's like, especially when you get into there's other aspects of this, where you know, just from a and even not even get into the religious aspects, if there's a humanitarian aspect to it of humans aside from nationality, of, like, the dignity of a human being, right, I can tell you in the Catholic circles that there's a little bit of rub there. You've got part of them talking about that's a big thing for Catholicism is the dignity of the human being, or human dignity versus, you know, some of these other governmental or legal situations. So, yeah, I think it's a super complex problem to solve and it's going to take some time. But I was going to say.
Speaker 2:The last thing I was going to say is we had an au pair who is from Colombia and she was with us for two years and she is trying to come back and see us, maybe for the summers, but she needs a visa to do that. She had a working visa through the cultural care was the provider we used and she was just we were just together in Dominican because she can go to Dominican. We met there, we were supporting the nonprofit there and she was telling us like yeah, I just got my appointment moved up to August 2026. And then, while we were there, she got it moved up to July of 2026. And she's trying to move up the appointments because the appointments are so stacked up to go through an actual process to get a legitimate visa to get to America. Well, two weeks later she sends Jen an email and says all the appointments have been canceled because Trump shut down these.
Speaker 2:You know, the executive orders shut down the ability for legal immigrants or for people Cause I think the Biden administration had set these up maybe to help people legally come over right and as to discourage some of the illegal activity. And so now I'm in a position where, like we would love to have Louisa come for the summer, but right now that's completely off the table. And again, just seeking to understand, I could immediately react to that and say this is horrible, like Trump's doing this and he's just shutting. You know he shuts this down and now it's screwing me. And you got good people like this, good loving people who are trying to do it the right way, and now they can't do it.
Speaker 2:But it's more complex than that. It's not that simple. I don't know enough about these. My understanding is maybe these were set up more recently and someone more informed on the topic can help me. But I think that's the type of thing that someone can get a hold of, react to and freak out about, you know, on both sides, without kind of seeking to understand. But I think too I guess I was also kind of alluding to more experiences you have on both sides will help, but I don't think that's happening as much because people are living in these chambers and not getting to experience both sides of the aisle.
Speaker 3:So I think there's two things. Number one, you know, I think kind of back to your question on education. I think one thing that people could start to implement is try to have as many of these conversations in person as you can. You know, I thought today about if we were going to do something like this topic of conversation having somebody else that shared that a particular perspective, here on the couch with us having three of us already. It would probably be fairly difficult, but, like you know, I would much.
Speaker 3:You know, I have a friend who shares differing perspectives and the last time I was in a car with them for eight hours, that's most of what we talked about, just trying to understand. So I think, having as many of the conversations in person as you can. And I think the other thing is and I'd ask you both and then maybe I'll comment on it, but like the ultimate sphere of influence for us as our families and our kids, how are we laying the foundation for them to have the perspectives that would foster that curiosity and or the level of humbleness necessary to seek out the full truth and not necessarily confirming biases?
Speaker 2:I think the challenge for me on that is doing that without destroying self-confidence. Right, because when you talk about humility, it's putting people in their place and like helping to continue to like, challenge them of like that could be wrong, or here's what's wrong about that, or this isn't what's right about this, or whatever. And so I think the challenge is doing that in a way that preserves self-confidence and helps them get to appreciate. And I don't know, trent, what are your immediate thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm just laughing, cause I think there was a point in time where, like angel, my, my wife wouldn't talk to Todd for a few years, cause every time she said something she felt like it was overanalyzed. So Todd has a very curious mind and so you, naturally, are wired to like investigate, and when someone spits something out, you challenge it, which I think is great, and and I laugh about it now, that was probably a decade ago, but it it. It is something that I think is important, and I've seen you with your kids several times as they would say something you'd be like you, you would continue to say that. And I think with with my kids is when I hear them say something that I know is not true or I think it's on the line, is just kind of calling it out. Or, more importantly, is, like the lens you view a situation from. Like what are you looking at the situation?
Speaker 1:From a positive or negative lens, or could it be this, or do you understand this, like when we talk about immigration and one of the things I had brought up, because in our circle our friends have family members that could be impacted, like it could?
Speaker 1:There's a a a large Hispanic population and in this area and their potentials that it could you know, and so it's very sensitive and there these are close people that we care about, that have been friends of our kids and so forth and so on.
Speaker 1:So when you look at from that lens, we're talking about that and how I was talking to my daughter about that and and it is the humanitarian side of it. But there's some of these towns where you know if you they've doubled the population almost through illegals, and you know if you put an extra 10,000 people in Marion what that would do to the healthcare systems and the school systems, and so, as you try to navigate this conversation, you said it's complex and I think one thing that we've always tried to do is not put a stake in the ground. We're not saying that this is the way it should be, we're not saying that this is how it should be, but just trying to understand that it is a complex situation and that we're willing to listen to other people and never forget the humanitarian side of it, because ultimately we all are people, but there has to be some structure or it's complete chaos why do we perceive it that way?
Speaker 3:that's that's. That's a big question for me, kind of goes back to I mentioned earlier the person that commented on social media and about patronizing a particular group of people, and I I'm very curious. I don't know if it's our mother, I don't know. Know if it's the city we grew up in, because Marion is a very good representation. I think at one point it was the city that was the most direct representation of the national population as a whole.
Speaker 3:The way that this particular area is divided up from a demographic perspective, is it what we got to experience as kids? I don't know. And so I guess I pose that question to you is what experiences do you think have led us to be the types of people and not that we're better again that don't plant a flag and that are willing to, you know, explore both sides, or how to get to a resolution, or what the real truth is. And again, like you want to, you know, you want to unpack with the real truth, like I mean, that's that much more complex. But let me stop and just ask that first question.
Speaker 1:I think for me, some of it's my experience in leadership. It's just throughout the last 10 years dealing with hundreds of different people. I mean, I started in sales, right, so it's, you have a lot of different people. But then when you're leading people and you're leading teams, you realize everyone's cut differently. We're all cut from a different cloth and that's not a bad thing. This is not a good, better best. This is just.
Speaker 1:God made us all so different and then we're all so different. Then we all grow up in all different environments and we have different experiences. And then you have to navigate these situations. So when you're navigating a situation and you're seeking to understand and you make a connection with someone and you feel that I've talked about this, I'm a feeler, so I'm feeling different things and different emotions and seeing different perspectives. And I think it's exposure, the more that I can see through my lens and I can see it through other people's lens. Now, all of a sudden, I have compassion for that, I want to understand that better and it just gives me a different perspective on life.
Speaker 3:So then, conversely, you would say that it is lack of exposure, like if somebody never spent any time around this particular demographic, and so they're making assumptions that this is probably what they want, right?
Speaker 1:Well, I wouldn't even say it's a yeah, demographic. This is is economical, social. I mean this goes across all different you know boards. It's like, if you have to, if you want to build a company, you have to motivate, inspire and pull people together right, and so you cannot build a large, successful company if you can't get a group of people to unite on on the same vision and want to carry forward. So that is something that you ultimately have to do, and so that skill set is going to require you to dig in and to try to understand people better and and and appreciate everyone for who, who they are yeah, I think it's 100% exposure To your point.
Speaker 2:I don't think we always grew up like this. I think we've put ourselves in a position where we've been exposed. You lived in Seattle for 10 years. I married someone who leaned a little more left and I think through different communities we've been willing to engage in, over time, even fitness communities. We've exposed ourselves to different walks of life, different perspectives, and that exposure, I think, has.
Speaker 2:Now I've talked about right or wrong.
Speaker 2:Let me add that this can have pros and cons, because there have been times where I've felt like I am so Switzerland and so neutral that I'm unable, or unable or hesitate to take a strong position that's actually going to drive meaningful change. Like in some of my spiritual circles, there are people that are just so intense and this is the way 100%. And what's cool about that is, I've seen at times again, world needs all kinds of different people. I've seen that inspire others to adopt a similar thing. That's been a very good thing for them, whereas I am kind of like, eh, you know, and that I think for others that are maybe looking to grow, it's less of an inspirational disposition if you're trying to move people in a certain direction. So, again to reiterate the fact that this isn't necessarily right or wrong. Certainly there are pros to being exposed to more seeing, more failing, more being wrong, more understanding different sets of perspectives. I also think it can at times water down your ability to take a firm stand on something and fight for it.
Speaker 3:Do we think that you know, when we grew up, we were exposed to just not everything but quite a bit, and but it was. It was where those things were during our lifetimes. What I mean by that is like one of the greatest experiences. You know, we grew up in a particular part of town Um, this is the basement we grew up in. I think we mentioned that last episode. 40 years ago we moved into this house. We don't still live here That'd be strange but it was sports and going down to the boys club and playing basketball. And I just had this conversation last week with one of our friends. We were out for Todd just turned 40 a couple of days ago. So we were one of our friends. We were out for Todd just turned 40 a couple days ago, so we were out for his birthday.
Speaker 3:We were talking about this experience and we went down and the boys' club in Marion was this hotbed of like crazy talented basketball players and we all played. Trent was pretty talented and gifted back then, and so we kind of rode his coattails and went down there and play basketball and we were exposed to something that we'd never been exposed to, but it became fairly commonplace after a period of time, and so we developed a very unique perspective on people from all walks of life, because while we got drove down there by our parents to play basketball, trent had a guy who played on his team, who was 12, who drove himself to practice one time, you know, which is crazy, you know, but like that was. That was something that we were exposed to. And I wonder and we were so we were exposed to that in the late 80s, late 80s, early 90s, versus today. Um, you know, there was.
Speaker 3:There's this perception that there was a period of time maybe it's millennial, maybe end of millennial, early gen z where parents were focused on eliminating challenges, right, and you get what you want and medals for everything, and yada, yada, yada.
Speaker 3:We interacted with different people who didn't have that, but like if you were placed in a situation again where there's not a lot of struggle, there's not a lot of push, there's not a lot of friction there and then in the next stage, so, as you and I'm sorry that this is a little convoluted, but I'm thinking about the evolution of this person from okay, I'm in sports and I win a medal every time, and then I get to this next level and I've never been told no.
Speaker 3:And so you know, I, I, the way I get what I want is through complaining or through, um, argument, argumentativeness. And then I get to this next level, and maybe that's university, and we've seen this where, okay, now I've got these initiatives right, wrong or indifferent, we're not criticizing initiatives, we'll, we'll, we'll start the term DEI right when now I've got a set of tools that allow me to continue to maintain this status. And so then you think about people that are exposed to people who have been given those tools and maybe their perception is okay, you know. And so I guess where I'm going with that is, we see potentially the evolution of that particular person. And then you, as somebody outside of that demographic or demographic or exposed to somebody who is now at a position or at a point where, um, their identity or their status is tied up in utilizing the tools provided to them to maintain the status that they want to maintain. I wonder if if that's kind of a premise for some of this or if I just yeah.
Speaker 1:I, I, yeah, I don't know. Um, I don't know the answer to that. Uh, one of the things that I keep thinking about, though, is, like this is kind of like a pandemic. Like this is kind of like a pandemic. This is destroying families. It's destroying communities. Our inability to communicate with one another and try to understand the truth is really really hard, especially because we all have a bias. One of the things I would like to talk about is the way we get our media used to be television and radio right, and I would like your opinion. I have an opinion, but do you believe that Main Street television and radio back in the day was controlled to influence in a particular way? Do you believe I would go back as far as like the 80s, 90s, and then how it's kind of transitioned over time?
Speaker 2:obviously, we have different media sources now, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on mainstream media back in the day I think, um, what hasn't changed is mainstream media for the most part, I think, as a natural business, business entity would was looking to maximize earnings. They always have been. I have seen, I would suggest, my uninformed perspective on this is that over time these entities have learned that if they play to a specific audience right, a lot of what's happened in marketing in the last 20 years is more persona specific who is our target audience? What do they want to hear? And business entities who have followed that model have found a lot of success, and so my understanding is Fox News, msnbc, whatever those primary channels are, have found a way to identify that persona and they've started to tailor the content specifically for them, which naturally, I believe, has left those media outlets more on one side or the other than maybe they. Is there some underground cabal, right?
Speaker 3:that has this particular long-term power grab in mind and are doing things in a particular way to lead to an end. I think what's happened. I think the erosion of media is now you said it earlier about specificity around what you know. Now there's so many content creators out there that each one can be hyper specific and so that right wing person who had to watch Fox news in the past, now they can watch this very specific creator. That's like hyper sensitive to their particular perspective and biases on things. So that's why the you know, and we've seen it and you're seeing it in the numbers that traditional media is losing a little bit of steam. Because, number one, I think there are people that believe that on top of the strive for profitability, there's also this like power dynamic underneath you. You get commentary around the george soros's of the world or you know people that are affiliated with Trump in that whole aspect. But that's kind of my take on it.
Speaker 1:The reason why I ask is I have a good friend that's in the music industry and he basically said the way to get your song on the top 10 radio station is you just pay. They find these people that look a certain way and the big corporations, they sign a contract and they pay and so, like the main street, even music that you would have traditionally kind of before spotify, where it would have been the radio or it would have been um, sirius xm, they they were putting on this stuff on there that they wanted us to hear. It wasn't necessarily what was the best and obviously best is different depending on the person but there was a lot of control. There's the perception of a lot of control. Again, we're not going to put a stake in the ground on anything, but there's the perception there was a lot of control in the music industry about what got popular and what didn't, and that's one thing. That's going around right now is the same with the media that the, the legacy media. There there was an agenda, um, and there's channels that had each agenda. Right. If you were, if you're conservative, you're watching fox news and you're taking that to the grave, and cnn, if you're a liberal, or msnbc, and they're again back to this polarization. They're trying to, I think, get people to tune in and they're trying to make it more extreme, and so I'm just curious, that's how we were fed and so some of that had influence on how we develop.
Speaker 1:Well, now we're in a different era. We're in an era where content is coming at you from a lot of different ways and there's a lot of information out there, and so now the tougher part is like what's true, right, and what lens am I looking at it through? So let's talk about some of the big ones. X is a big one right now. Twitter now it's called X. So X is like we're just going to give you information, we're going to tell you the truth.
Speaker 1:You could argue that X maybe has a bias. Now Elon has said it doesn't, and he's been one of the best, I think, to implement something like community notes, which I think Facebook announced a month ago that they are looking at a similar thing, where it's like something is posted, someone can go in and add community notes, which is facts, and he lets a lot of different people and it has different people with different opinions and then, based on how many people have supporting facts. It kind of says, ok, well, this is probably the most common fact of kind of similar to that ground news across the board. So trying to balance to try to get accurate information out there. How should people consume their content?
Speaker 3:accurate information out there. How should people consume their content? I think that people, as somebody who consumes an enormous amount of content, I think that people have to first of all remove their identity from their. They have to remove their personal identity from their beliefs and that's very difficult to do because you can run away. Man, like you know, x is the town hall, but as soon as he is, you know, again there's the perception that he is a particular type of person, whether he is or isn't.
Speaker 3:Everybody went to was blue sky, which is the other like micro news social media site, because so much of their identity is tied up in their beliefs and they're, like you know again, echo chamber. They just get away from it. You know, I'm going to run to this other platform that is very similar, uh, or threads, right, i'm'm going to get away and I'm going to go to threads because I don't want to hear this, because I believe that this is driving this particular thing. So, you know, I would say, from the way you consume content, it goes back to try to remove your identity. But you know, again, sign out from your accounts and look at what the and search a particular term you're interested in and look at what comes back. That's a way to do it Again. Leverage of the sites We've talked about a number of times now. Try to stay off of blue sky, try to stay off of truth social, you know, like rumble, right. Rumble may be a little more in the middle, but it's still going to lean a little bit right. Rumble, right.
Speaker 1:You know rumble may be a little more in the middle, but it's still going to lean a little bit right. What's the best way to fact check something Like say, say you, you, you see it, you see something in your feed. I don't care what platform it is. You see something in your feed and you're like, or you're like, yeah, that aligns exactly with who I am. How, how would you go about that?
Speaker 1:Well, again, I don't know or does it differs on platform? Would you google it? Would you ask chat gpt like how would you validate something? You see and you're like this is really good. I think it's true because it aligns with what I think. But no, you know what I want to go?
Speaker 3:I always google the counterpoint.
Speaker 1:So like give, give me an input, what, what, what you would?
Speaker 2:I don't think it's so much like truth, true or false, because it's also lives in the gray area. If I see something that's like super convincing convicting I will google a counterpoint.
Speaker 2:So if you were to, give me why this is yeah, or I would you know. If someone you know, if someone says you know they just discovered that they you know Jesus, you know they found scientific evidence that Jesus was crucified and this factual was correct, right, then I might go and if that was something I really wanted to explore honestly, naturally I'd probably like flock to that and be like, yes, you know they, you know, they proved it.
Speaker 2:But I think in terms of a seek to seek to understand perspective. I think it would be Googling a counterpoint or a different, a more inquisitive question of that, and I think it's it's multiple data points. I think that would be. For me, the underlying thing here is don't just look at one thing is and that's part of it is just approaching it with an open mind is check multiple different sources and information and try to go out of your way to get whether that's logging out of your accounts or Googling a counterpoint, because depending on how you Google something, the results will come back strikingly different, right, and even AI can give different flavors of things. So I don't know that. The answer is there's this one place is the best place, and that's why I think it's so important that you Stay curious.
Speaker 2:Stay curious, Stay curious man.
Speaker 3:Look for those types of things and try to discern and over time you'll get better at it Discerning what's entertainment versus what is like A lot of this stuff that's happening right now. I think one of the things that Donald Trump has been extremely experienced in is media and being like on TV shows and how to appeal to people. So, like the other day yesterday was it that he declared the Golf of America Day?
Speaker 1:Like most of that, most of that, most of that's, it was a month or something ago.
Speaker 3:Well, no, yesterday, on the flight to the Super Bowl, he declared February 9th Golf of America Day. A lot of that's theater, you know, and it's going to upset some people because they think it's you know, for whatever reason. But you know, for me I look at some of that stuff as entertainment, like you know. I look at some of that stuff as entertainment, like you know, and not letting myself get captured by that and infuriated by that, because at the end of the day, mexico will recognize the Gulf of Mexico how they want to. The US will recognize it how they want to. If you as a person don't agree with that and you want it to be the Gulf of Mexico, then it's the Gulf of Mexico to you, it's, you know. So I think that's peace. That's. A piece of the puzzle too is don't get captured by, by those types of things.
Speaker 1:Try to would that be as like? Just don't care as much Like it. I had a good friend that said you know, if you focused on the people around you and their lives, you'd have much greater impact than worrying about.
Speaker 3:I agree.
Speaker 1:And so if we could all focus on the 10 to 15 people that are directly in our lives and we could raise them up, that we're going to change the world from the bottom up and not from the top down. So what I kind of heard you say there is like don't care so deeply about everything Is that, would you?
Speaker 2:align with that? I'd align with that 100%. Honestly, I get my news from a place called the New Paper. I get a text message once a day. That's got the eight seemingly factual news. I think you guys use the same thing and that's the only news that I watch. I think largely a lot of this is a waste of time, and you and I had a conversation over the holidays about this. I think a lot of it's a waste of time because we can't control it, and I feel like for me, I've always kind of used the premise that I've got a hundred units of energy today and every unit of energy I spend worrying or thinking about something that I have no control over is a complete waste of opportunity to have a positive impact on something closer around me. We don't, I think, appreciate the fact enough that we have finite energy, so I agree with that, but.
Speaker 1:I want to push back on you a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's say you live in a house and over 50 years, this house is deteriorating. Things aren't being done, the vents aren't being cleaned, things are cracking, stuff like that let's call the United States government, the house or something. So there's big things happening and one of the topics and you guys might not want to talk about this if you don't feel versed enough in, but one of the huge things is the debt right, $36 trillion, I believe. The budget's around $7 trillion, $7.3 trillion trillion, and the revenue is like 5.5. So there is this massive hole.
Speaker 1:Now, when you compare that to other countries other, there are other countries worse off than us, but, like when you, there was an example where someone brought it down to like the household level and it was. It was insane. It was like you, you know you make 30 000 a year and you have like three million dollars in debt and you can't make. So it's clearly upside down, there's clearly problems and there's the Department of Governmental Efficiency that's involved, and this is a topic that's I mean you could, I mean people are angry and hateful. And then there's this part of like, do you balance your family budget? Do you just run up credit cards and then just keep, and so, like there's this, I would love to navigate one of these more difficult problems with you. Guys Talk about both sides, so like maybe the audience can even unpack some of these things that are super complex.
Speaker 2:The bubble will pop at some point. The bubble will pop just like it did on the housing market, and it will all feel it and we'll do our best to recover from it market and it will all feel it and we'll do our best to recover from it. But until then, like to me, the the house analogy doesn't hold because it's a perception of deterioration. People have been screaming about the debt for 30 years and oh it's, it's the highest ever and highest ever, and highest ever and highest ever. Certainly it's getting closer and closer to that and as more people disregard it, like they did the housing stuff when people were just doing whatever to get things pushed through, to make money, to make money.
Speaker 2:This, to me, why systems, the way systems are set up, is so important, because a lot of what is driven the corruption is is is greed in the system for financial gain.
Speaker 2:When people have financial gain, they will do some pretty wild things. And I'm not saying the financial debt is not, you know, and the debt is not a concerning thing. I think it certainly is, but I also think there is enough. There is enough people thinking about that on a day-to-day basis that, whether or not I'm thinking about it and I don't want to. You know whether or not I'm thinking about it is, if you look at the opportunity cost of my energy and me spending my energy there versus where I could be spending my energy, I think there is a much higher opportunity cost of my energy and me spending my energy there versus where I could be spending my energy, I think there is a much higher opportunity cost. If I'm thinking about that Not that it's not a real problem, not that it's not something that is like I'm not saying it's fine, everything's going to be fine, nothing's ever going to go wrong. But that's my take.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's funny because there's another issue that you could view in a particular lens from the other side of the aisle. So when we look at the Doge and we look at Doge and we look at the national debt, typically the right is like got it all. Look at all this crazy spending. We spent $20 million on a I don don't know an opera in some foreign country to foster some social perspective. Uh, and that liberals are like, again, wrong writer and different.
Speaker 3:This is the stereotype. We need our money, we need to keep our money. We have all this money coming in. You're not touching it. We're gonna storm, you know, the department of education building and prevent these guys from looking at the records and this is illegal, all of this thing. The funny thing is, on the other side you have the environmental discussion, where one side is, eh, you know, and the other side is like we need to do stuff now, we're all gonna die. I go back to Todd's point and I align with it. Is that somebody's thinking about this? You know, we are a very resilient species. We're very. When our backs are against the wall, we perform best, and I think that with systems and the people in play. We have people way smarter than I am addressing these particular issues and they'll get us to the right point.
Speaker 3:With Doge specifically, there's been a when you say Doge department of government efficiency specifically, there have been, there's been some villainization of the kids that are you know, have been selected to investigate some of this potential fraudulent spending or overspending or whatever, and they're too young and these kids are teenagers and they shouldn't have access to. You know, one of the kids I was explaining, I think, to Todd the other day, and I don't know if you've seen this one of the kids received, I believe, a grant or some type of an award for decoding scrolls that were buried in the Mount Vesuvius eruption.
Speaker 2:Like no one's been able to do this, and this kid is like 19 and was smart enough to use AI to like decode. These kids are brilliant. Let them do this. You know what I mean. So I think it's again to go back to how much of an issue is national debt and what's going to be the gain for us worrying about it, stressing about it, thinking about it, and I think it's important to be educated about this stuff, Because I think what what I don't want to get misinterpreted is like eh, don't even think about politics, Don't vote, Don't, whatever. It's a waste of time, waste energy. I'm not necessarily going that far, but I will say I think exponentially more energy is spent worrying and thinking and and arguing about politics than what the opportunity costs of that energy could be spent.
Speaker 3:You know it is. I will say it is relieving to a point because I think ultimately and again, we may have different values, I may have different values from you guys or whatever but it's nice to see an effort, regardless of what side it's coming from, to reduce corruption. I think that that is, I like, the way that feels, regardless of how egregious it actually is. There may be some debate there, but it is nice to see that okay, like because I mean, you know, in business I'm sure you could attest to this, it's transparency, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think the transparency has been great. I liked some of the things I've talked about is, before a bill gets voted on or passed, that the public has access to it. I mean, ultimately it's public funding and I think the more transparency we can have to help educate, to help understand in the public, because before, like, we don't have any idea what's in those bills. And, to your point, maybe you don't want to spend any time on it, maybe you want to spend some time, but I know that with the debt, the only way to pay debt is to print money generally, which is drives inflation. So there's different ways to try to combat that and I think it does have a an impact on us. When, when will it peak? When will it not? Should you sit around worrying about it all the time? Probably not. Should you understand it? Probably, especially if you own a business, and it could be impactful. I mean everything with these tariffs. Again, this is impactful. It's going to really impact trading between other countries, and I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing.
Speaker 1:So, sitting here, it's like there's pros and cons to both of those, and I think one of the interesting thing about Trump is most people don't like him as a person because he seems to come off as arrogant. He's very demeaning, he makes very un-presidential comments and people that just make them sick to their stomach, and so if he approached things in a different way, a lot of his policies are pro-America, but again, from a humanitarian standpoint they do challenge. From a Christianity standpoint they definitely challenge there, and so I understand why people are up in arms and upset. But we let it take to the level of passion that we have or we let it go to. But we've let it take to the the the level of passion that we have or we let it go to, and how we let it destroy relationships. Like I still think back. I know people that are not talking to family members and for what?
Speaker 1:And it's like you're not talking to a mom, a dad, a sibling, an aunt and uncle because you're so upset and it was just because they voted for a person. That was different. I don't care who you voted for. You voted for Kamala, you voted for Trump, but you voted for X person. I even saw this meme. It's like you voted for this dictator. Now you get this and this is what you you know, and it was like wow, like back to your point, like I think everybody wants the same thing. I think you said this when we started everyone wants people taking care of. When you look at our, our budget, I think 60% of it is social security and Medicare and some of those services that take care of our population. That's super important. People want to take care of people. Generally speaking, how we go about it and how we do it, it is different.
Speaker 3:Well, I think the fine line there is this might be unpopular, you're right. How we go about it and how we do it is different, and I think that the line between, in a lot of instances between the two sides is how much do we want people to help themselves? Because on one extreme side it is get off my lawn, get off the street corner, get a job loser, and on the extreme side it is, you know, get off my lawn, get off the street corner, get a job loser. And on the other side it is let me give you everything you potentially need. And again, I think it's somewhere in the middle. You know, we're probably best served utilizing our direct impact to help someone get on the path towards success, in whatever capacity we can do that. In whatever capacity we can do that being a reference on a job application, whatever it looks like, versus having a wife whose mother was a severe addict and died from drug addiction.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately. We did our best to help, but what I think a lot of people lose perspective on that maybe haven't experienced something like that directly. There's only so much you can do. And fretting and worrying and getting all worked up about the fact that her mom was born in the poorest part of South Carolina you can be born in and she was exposed to things that a girl her age should never have been exposed to, meaning her mother and went through some horrific things. That sucks, and I wanted her mom to be like you know I would have wanted to see her mom here.
Speaker 3:Tara, having experienced that firsthand, realized that she could only take it so far. You know. I remember suggesting, hey, let's have her come here and live with us. And she's like she'll steal our pills. She'll, you know. And so you get to a point where you're like look, I'm doing my best I'm an influence of people around me to be the better people and make a bigger impact and not get so tied up in um trying to evil even the playing field for um. You know people that you can't potentially influence or don't have a close enough connection to.
Speaker 2:It's complex, right, it goes back to to that it's complex and I think that is a foundational difference, I think in a lot of cases, between a right wing and a left wing approach as a humanitarian versus a systematic right. So you could look at someone's situation who's struggling, right, and you say I'm not going to give them anything because if I give it to them then they're not incentivized to go maybe try and figure it out themselves. On the other side, as a person who believes that people are very much part of who they become as a product of the experiences that they've had throughout their life, you could very much make a valid argument for the fact that that person was 100% disadvantaged, was 100% climbing out of a hole, of the examples that were set by those around them, the educational opportunities that they had, because being down in the Dominican, I know a lot of these kids can't get educated just because their basic needs aren't met. You look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs right, a pyramid. If your basic needs aren't met, who gives a shit about education? And like these spiritual, you know becoming the most of yourself, like that's the least of people's concerns, and so it's like from a humanitarian perspective, there's a valid argument to be made, like that's not their fault, like that's not their fault, like how can we support them and help them through that without creating this system where people just sit back and take, take, take, take because it's being laid out in front of them.
Speaker 2:So I think that's the balance in the art of this is like nobody like again, they're both very valid perspectives, but it gets complex because the more you support, the more you incentivize a lack of action, right, but at the same time, a lack of action or the less you support, you know it's going to. It is a very unlevel playing field and generational poverty and things like that continue to perpetuate themselves and the middle class gap continues to widen. So at the end of the day, my point is it's just very, very complex and if we could talk more and communicate more and debate more, we could find that fine line of balance between that's my favorite charities and organizations to invest in are the ones that are investing in people in ways that allow them to have sustained success thereafter. And don't get me wrong, there are some charities. You just need to have a food pantry and they just need to give food, because there are always going to be people that are in having some sort of food challenges in their life.
Speaker 2:There are also organizations that I really love. They're so thoughtful about how they're spending the money because they're investing in ways that's going to have a long-term ROI. They're supporting people in getting them job skills or resume or other kind of mentorship or coaching or things that will allow them to get on their feet and then be able to take the actions on their own. But again, it's just super complex.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you're taking the right. I mean, it's taking the right approach. It's not getting on X or Blue Sky or whatever and just complaining about it. It's hey, I'm gonna go down to the Dominican once a year, I'm going to make an impact with this and then, for those that are around me, I'm going to ask them to help me in some capacity whether that's financial donations going down there with me or whatever and helping to build the structures or the foundations in your smaller community that can again put people that are lower on Maslow's hierarchy of needs in a position to succeed. And that's you know.
Speaker 2:I think that's kind of the whole crux of this. It's a. It's a big. I'm going to go off on a little bit of a rant here, but it's a big pet peeve of mine. I'd be interested in your guys' take on this. I think within our community in particular, I think it's very popular to believe. So I'm going to I'm going to take a strong stance on this for a change.
Speaker 2:It's very popular to think that I'm self-made. I was the one who made this decision. I was the one who created the success. I was the one who did this. I was the one who got in there and really worked hard, and I tend to look at things a little bit differently.
Speaker 2:I tend to think that people are a product of their experiences and the examples that they either saw, lived out, people that they interact with, there was people, someone along the way that poured into you at the right time in the right way, collectively compounded. That incentivized you to make that decision, to focus on your grades and get good grades. That allowed you to or incentivized you to work hard at this sort of thing, whether that was a value instilled in you as a kid or something that came around later in life. I tend to believe a lot of people who have made it struggle to give the success that is due to those around them for the different ways that they have had micro influences at the right times. I'd be interested in your guys' perspective on that because I think, again, amongst a certain population that has achieved some sort of you know level of desired outcomes in life, they like to think that they did it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I couldn't be more aligned with you. If you think it's all you, you're out of your mind. I would say that from my perspective, in wealth as a measurement that's used a lot, most of it's luck. Most of the people I know in these crazy, they're all outliers, right, but they are. They share a very similar level of intellect. I'm not saying everybody. They share a very similar appetite, some appetite for certain things like risk.
Speaker 3:So there are some characteristics but, like I know a hundred people like that, you know and we know billionaires and millionaires and you know and we know billionaires and millionaires and you know people worth 50 grand and a lot of that is you know, I mean we, you know. There is the I wouldn't call it a cliche, but there's the. You know luck is the amount of times you put, you put yourself out there and eventually something's going to hit. But I would say I know people that make 50 grand, a hundred grand, 200 grand, 500, a million a year, whatever more, that share the exact same characteristics.
Speaker 3:They did the right thing with right place, right time. But right place, right time played into it and whether that's the influence that was laid upon them at a young age or a particular mentor they met. I had a kid that I knew in Seattle who ran who, who, uh, whose friends were friends with a guy who was at a time where he needed an assistant to kind of help him and he mentored this particular person and three years into that relationship this guy was driving um exotic cars and had these crazy houses because, lucky for him, his parents knew a guy who was extremely wealthy and um in the steel industry and he got to be his assistant for a couple years until he you know he wasn't excessively brilliant but he was right place, right time and good for him. So I agree.
Speaker 1:I want to go a little spiritual on you. I had to look up a Bible verse, but I think so. James 2, 14 is where it starts. What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed or lacking in daily food and one of you says to them go in peace, be warmed and filled, without giving them the things they needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. So I think it's a both hand. It's one of those situations where even Jesus, they're saying you got to help clothe and feed and do those things.
Speaker 1:But the fact that we're here and I know that we all believe as Christians just like God's intervention in our lives and the people he's put in my life and in your lives, and God has put people around you and he has equipped you in some way, shape or form, and that may look different. Again, defining success just depends on the lens that you're looking through and what you're aiming at. But I believe God has his hand in everything we do, and we're there by happenstance, we have to take action. And we're there by happenstance, we have to take action. That's the part where, when you have that moment where you're like you got the lazy brain or the go-get-it brain, you have got to be willing to put yourself out there. You've got to be willing to fail. There is a level of when the moment gets put in front of you that you take action.
Speaker 3:Real action.
Speaker 1:Yeah, real action. And so that's where I think it is both. But I don't think too many people are self-made. I mean, you think about the story of Walt Disney, right, walt Disney had this dream and this vision. He went to over 300 banks. He was how many people would go to 300 banks and hear the word no? I mean, 30 banks seems like a lot to me, 10 banks seems like a lot to me. He was so certain of what this was gonna be. He saw the future, he was so, his certainty was so high. He went to over 300 banks and heard the word no before he finally heard the word yes. And I think that level of certainty and that level of dedication are the things that we do lack. But he had a vision and you could say God gave him the vision, and so forth and so on. But there is a component of that is when you get absolute certainty about something, you lock in and you have to work at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would agree and I think I'm glad you brought up the spiritual element because I think, depending on your spiritual disposition, I think absolutely God is involved in this and I think it could be others as well. But the question would be where did Walt get that level of determination? And no normal person is going to go ask 300. And I think there are a lot of people out there who have maybe gone through something similar that said, that was me, I had that determination, I did that, and I think that's the part for me that can be frustrating is just the overplaying of their own involvement in where they turned out, because I think even on the right-hand side, that's the connotation of some of the underprivileged.
Speaker 2:It's like, well, get off your lazy ass and go do something right, and I think that's maybe an aggressive stereotype of it, but I think that's what a lot of conservatives would suggest for people who are on welfare or other. Not that there are exceptions, extenuating circumstances they would be empathetic towards, but to me it's a very frustrating position because I do think there are people that are very disadvantaged, not just from a resources perspective, but also because of the examples around them and the experiences they've had, not just from a resources perspective, but also because of the examples around them and experiences they've had, even the characteristics, the values, the morals. There are a lot of absent things that you know some of us else have had, you know were born on second or third.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't disagree with that at all.
Speaker 1:Well, this was a really fun topic today. Obviously, there was probably more emotion and intensity than normal, but if I could leave you with anything, it's focus on the people around you. Don't let your echo chamber or what you believe keep you from relationships in your life, whether that's a family member or who they voted for. We're all in this together. We all want the same thing. We want to exist. We all want to coexist. I hope one thing you learned today is we're not standing firm on either side on anything. We're open to learn. Be open, seek to understand, try to really understand those around you, because that anger and that hatred isn't going to lead any place. So that's our encouragement for this week. I look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks,